Tendon Stiffness

[Track007]

Ok

So flats it is then!

[Jstu3565]

@Charlie_Francis

The associated cost is the specific Speed and Speed End rates you must travel and the period necessary for specific adaptation.
The limitation on ultimate speed you can reach on a grass surface favors pick-up drills on the one hand and longer SE on the other (limited accel distance and then maintain).
The trick is to balance the time on the track with the carryover period from the grass training before tendon stiffness is diminished, favoring shorter, more frequent training phases.
Based on MVPs training film posted here earlier, the hills appeared to be a compromise between the grass surface and the track (possibly packed gravel?). If so, this might extend the period where grass training is optimal (?)
When we did it, we went to the grass in the early SPP but after some track exposure in Toronto for two week periods before returning to the harder surfaces.
This worked out very well for us but really by circumstance rather than design. We got free training camps where the only option was grass and we took it. Now, it appears, we were on to something back then.

Exactly. It’s not that you should only run on grass. It’s just that a compliant surface allows for a little more emphasis on certain parts of sprinting, just like different sprint drills(20 meter accels versus special end) emphasise different parts of a race.

[nycjay01]

@Desideratus15

This is something I’ve been giving a lot of thought to. While I’m not positive, but I believe wearing some spongy like shoes would definitely have some of the benefits we are talking about you need to make sure you are not wearing shoes with a significant heel lift (which are commonly shoes that have a lot of cushioning). You end up throwing the whole recruitment/shock absorption of the kinetic chain off and will make your feet weak.

Other thing I’ve been thinking about is walking with softer shoes/sandals on and the possible benefits of stiffness there.

I have posted something on this topic before. I was thinking of training with a trainer with a negative heel rise (the heel is lower than the forefoot) But I was not sure if this would cause achillies irratation.

Here is a link to the shoe. Let me know what you all think.

http://www.earth.us/shoeDetail.asp?Gender=men&cat=8&ID=3141

[mortac8]

@nycjay01

I have posted something on this topic before. I was thinking of training with a trainer with a negative heel rise (the heel is lower than the forefoot) But I was not sure if this would cause achillies irratation.

Here is a link to the shoe. Let me know what you all think.

http://www.earth.us/shoeDetail.asp?Gender=men&cat=8&ID=3141

Does this shoe have a negative heel? It’s hard to tell from that page.

I really like shoes with a negative heel rise (like Brooks Mach8) but they can indeed cause tendon irritation for some people in which case they are not worth it.

[Desideratus15]

@mortac8

I don’t think cross country spikes on a track is going to give you any effect close to running on grass. It’s not much different than using regular spikes on a track. I know as I wear XC spikes all the time (they are my ‘running flats’ used for nearly everything).

Agreed. Flats don’t compare well here.

[Desideratus15]

@nycjay01

I have posted something on this topic before. I was thinking of training with a trainer with a negative heel rise (the heel is lower than the forefoot) But I was not sure if this would cause achillies irratation.

Here is a link to the shoe. Let me know what you all think.

http://www.earth.us/shoeDetail.asp?Gender=men&cat=8&ID=3141

Well, this is the premise of “Jump Soles” and as you mentioned the achilles is a prime factor here. Also, just like we weren’t meant to walk with elevated heels we weren’t meant to walk with elevated fore foots either. Best bet (if we’re talking about stiffness) in my opinion is a perfectly flat shoe with cushioning. We are meant to walk barefoot on grass, since many of us can’t do this during the day walking with a flat cushiony shoe is like wearing portable grass, but you aren’t altering your gait as much as an elevated shoe, whether it be heel or fore foot.

This can definitely be hard to find. Flattest shoe I’ve been able to find that is more of a cross trainer/wear it during the day is the adidas samba indoor soccer shoe (for anyone looking, indoor soccer shoes in general happen to be much more flat in comparison to other shoes, just fyi). Perhaps putting an insole can help here. Although, insoles typically have heel lifts too haha damned if you do damned if you don’t type of situation.

[nycjay01]

@Desideratus15

Well, this is the premise of “Jump Soles” and as you mentioned the achilles is a prime factor here. Also, just like we weren’t meant to walk with elevated heels we weren’t meant to walk with elevated fore foots either. Best bet (if we’re talking about stiffness) in my opinion is a perfectly flat shoe with cushioning. We are meant to walk barefoot on grass, since many of us can’t do this during the day walking with a flat cushiony shoe is like wearing portable grass, but you aren’t altering your gait as much as an elevated shoe, whether it be heel or fore foot.

This can definitely be hard to find. Flattest shoe I’ve been able to find that is more of a cross trainer/wear it during the day is the adidas samba indoor soccer shoe (for anyone looking, indoor soccer shoes in general happen to be much more flat in comparison to other shoes, just fyi). Perhaps putting an insole can help here. Although, insoles typically have heel lifts too haha damned if you do damned if you don’t type of situation.

I agree that’s why I stayed away from these. I find the skateboard shoes are the flattest and stiffest shoes on the planet

[maris]

This is perhaps slightly changing the topic, but still very much relevant.

Here in the UK, I don’t think we have quality of grass to sprint on (unless you can find a cricket pitch or something, but you need to be careful doing that!).

Once the winter starts, which you could argue it has already, I am not even convinced it is of the quality to do tempo on! I was doing a tempo session yesterday and it was rather ‘sludgy’ and the top surface was fairly slippy. I was doing it in cross country spikes but I think I would have really struggled if I was in flats.

Additionally the surfaces I can think of around here aren’t particularly even.

I am suspiscious that this may have a negative impact on mechanics as it is harder to maintain hip height and posture etc. Thoughts?

[UKcheetah]

When the grass does become usable it’s usually spring summer. Would this phenomenon work in reverse - i.e. winter on the track then move to grass pre-season… would the muscles and tendons still compensate for the softer surface durig this short time?

[Desideratus15]

@UKcheetah

When the grass does become usable it’s usually spring summer. Would this phenomenon work in reverse - i.e. winter on the track then move to grass pre-season… would the muscles and tendons still compensate for the softer surface durig this short time?

According to some of the studies posted in the beginning of this thread, the body begins compensating almost the instant you step on to a more/less compliant surface. So, what I’m wondering is, is there really any steady adaptation gained from sprinting on grass that isn’t gone just about the instant you step onto the track?

Perhaps grass best use is it is more natural and less abusing on the legs?

OR, and this is something I’ve been throwing around in my head. What about doing all of one’s warming up on the grass (body has compensated) and then doing the maximal sprints on the track? (Perhaps before body can acclimate due to such a quick change of pace?).

Afterall, majority of tracks I know/use have a grass infield right next to lane 1.

[Goose232]

[QUOTE=Jstu3565]The second is when your foot hits the ground the amount of stiffness(lack of bend at any of the joints in the legs). QUOTE]

Sice when has there ever been an athlete/sprinter, who landed with a nearly straight leg?
The amount of bend at the joint angles are huge. (thigh to torso angle, lower leg to thigh angle).

Is there anyone that can show a picture or slow mo vid of a decent sprinter, landing with not much bend in the leg?

(not a picture of the start block push out, but of when the sprinter is actually running close to or at full speed.)

[Goose232]

@Jstu3565

The second is when your foot hits the ground the amount of stiffness(lack of bend at any of the joints in the legs). ,

Since when did a runner/sprinter land with a nearly straight leg? I have never seen it.

[Jstu3565]

@Desideratus15

According to some of the studies posted in the beginning of this thread, the body begins compensating almost the instant you step on to a more/less compliant surface. So, what I’m wondering is, is there really any steady adaptation gained from sprinting on grass that isn’t gone just about the instant you step onto the track?

Perhaps grass best use is it is more natural and less abusing on the legs?

OR, and this is something I’ve been throwing around in my head. What about doing all of one’s warming up on the grass (body has compensated) and then doing the maximal sprints on the track? (Perhaps before body can acclimate due to such a quick change of pace?).

Afterall, majority of tracks I know/use have a grass infield right next to lane 1.

You are right that at first the changes in stiffness only occur while you are on a particular running surface, but if you keep repeating these runs on a compliant surface then these changes become more permanent. This happens through a process called activity dependent plasticity. Activity dependent plasticity is the idea that changes in motor control start out as temporary changes, but with repeated practice, these changes become more permanent(not entirely permanent since obviously if you stop practicing you eventually lose alot of that skill). This concept doesn’t apply to only running on different surfaces though. The same thing applies to regular sprinting or lifting. If you only lifted or sprinted every two weeks for example, you probably wouldn’t notice any substantial gains. This is because those skills haven’t been done enough to make any lasting changes. But if you lift/sprint 2-3 times per week for example you are much more likely to see improvements in those skills.

Definately agree that running on grass can be easier on the legs too.

[mortac8]

@Goose232

[QUOTE=Jstu3565]The second is when your foot hits the ground the amount of stiffness(lack of bend at any of the joints in the legs). QUOTE]

Sice when has there ever been an athlete/sprinter, who landed with a nearly straight leg?
The amount of bend at the joint angles are huge. (thigh to torso angle, lower leg to thigh angle).

The amount of bend at the joint angles are huge? Oh really?

[mortac8]

@Goose232

[QUOTE=Jstu3565]The second is when your foot hits the ground the amount of stiffness(lack of bend at any of the joints in the legs). QUOTE]

Sice when has there ever been an athlete/sprinter, who landed with a nearly straight leg?
The amount of bend at the joint angles are huge. (thigh to torso angle, lower leg to thigh angle).

Joint angles are huge? Oh really? Like 180:) ?

[major]

From reading this thread I have picked up that it is the muscles not the tendons that become stiffer, I was wondering if there is any relationship between muscle stiffness and flexibility?

Would the muscles get tighter as they got stiffer?
i.e are tighter muscles stiffer muscles?

Thanks

[Desideratus15]

@major

From reading this thread I have picked up that it is the muscles not the tendons that become stiffer, I was wondering if there is any relationship between muscle stiffness and flexibility?

Would the muscles get tighter as they got stiffer?
i.e are tighter muscles stiffer muscles?

Thanks

I think you are referring to one of the poster’s responses. If you look at the studies posted tendon stiffness does indeed increase with softer surfaces according their results.

[major]

@Desideratus15

I think you are referring to one of the poster’s responses. If you look at the studies posted tendon stiffness does indeed increase with softer surfaces according their results.

Oh ok. That makes my question irrelevant then

[UKcheetah]

@Desideratus15

I think you are referring to one of the poster’s responses. If you look at the studies posted tendon stiffness does indeed increase with softer surfaces according their results.

I thought more ‘compliant’ tendons resulted in faster sprinting? This is how Martyn? explained it in another thread… a ‘stiff’ tendon is not elastic…

On the subject, how compliant does the surface have to be? For example, would sprinting in triple jump spikes (1cm cushioning) instead of sprint spikes cause ‘stiffer’ (or more ‘compliant’ as it may be) tendons??

[Desideratus15]

@UKcheetah

I thought more ‘compliant’ tendons resulted in faster sprinting? This is how Martyn? explained it in another thread… a ‘stiff’ tendon is not elastic…

On the subject, how compliant does the surface have to be? For example, would sprinting in triple jump spikes (1cm cushioning) instead of sprint spikes cause ‘stiffer’ (or more ‘compliant’ as it may be) tendons??

Keep in mind I’m by no means well versed in this topic, which is why I started the thread. But from what I can gather sprinting on softer surfaces forces your body to make better use of the stretch reflex. This causes some adaptation in the muscles and tendons (appears to be increased stiffness from the numerous studies in those links referenced) and once a transition to the track is made the body still has this adaptation so it is used. However, the body realizes it does not need this adaptation as the ground helps here (harder ground = ground does more work for you) so the tendons and such lose that adaptation (stiffness I believe). The body’s primary goal is survival and a product of this is accomplishing tasks with the most efficiency. If the body can allow something else, the ground in this instance, to do work it (the body) doesn’t have to do, then it will do so.

So, softer shoes, even minorly softer will cause different stiffness but I think the difference between different spikes is going to be pretty much negligible.