I would appreciate anyones comments on this topic. When using surge (or any of its knockoff products) I experience dizziness, lightheadness, even feel sleepy. This occurs whether taking it before/during or after weight-training.
I also have several athletes who experience this to various degrees (none of which are sprinters). For the athletes and myself who have this problem, we do 100% better on glutamine/BCAA mix.
I am guessing some of us are just not good at metabolizing carbs. I would also guess that sprinters as a whole are and thats why most of them like the product? This problem is never addressed but I have seen it with enough football players to know that many dont feel good using surge. Other carbs like oatmeal dont seem to be a problem. Any comments?
i was going to try and answer this post myself, but instead i thought id email the thread to john berardi (who developed surge for bio-test) and see what his thought were…
Surge has a profound effect on insulin and blood glucose. Here’s what happens to blood glucose and insulin (time zero is immediately before consuming Surge)
Time Glucose Insulin
0 4.4225 3.8
15 4.995 23.2
30 3.78 40.1
60 2.8375 12.65
90 2.885 4
120 4.0325 3.6
As you notice, blood glucose barely rises due to the rapid muscle uptake. In addition, 30 min after ingestion, blood glucose is diving. This is due to the 1000% increase in blood insulin. Therefore one is bound to get “tired” due to hypoglycemia.
However, this only happens if Surge is taken too far before exercise. It doesnt happen if Surge is sipped during exercise! This is due to the powerful effects of the exercise and the catecholamines on maintaining blood glucose and opposing insulin.
In addition, this will happen after exercise as well. That is why we recommend drinking another Surge drink 1 hour later and then eating another food meal 1 hour after if you are an endurance athlete trying to recover between races OR why we recommend eating a meal 1 hour later for other purposes.
JB
Good to get a response from Berardi on the value of his product! Now I’m going to forward the question to Baskin and Robbins to see what THEY recommend that we eat post workout. (Equally illuminating, I’m sure!)
Use this type of product very sparingly and only after and extremely intense and demanding session. You couldn’t possibly need this type of product routinely unless your program sucks! And be sure that the protein in the product is in a form that can be rapidly absorbed- otherwise go out and buy yourself some dextrose to mix with some of your protein shake and save yourself a pile of money. Where’s 716??
from what i have read about surge, it was developed after reasearch was done, meaning that john looked for the best way (marco profile, amino profile etc) to facilitate the recovery process and THEN created a product that is designed to these specifications. surge is one of the rare supplements out there that actaully has scientific validation behind its creation as opposed to research done on its effects after its already finished.
I think people should consider reducing the amount of the post workout drink. Most of the emphasis on post workout drinks comes from the bodybuilding camp. I believe the late Dan Duchaine used to advocate 50% of calories be eaten post workout.
I like Surge, but I think the recommended 2-3 scoop serving is way too much. Except possibly for super endurance athletes, nobody is going to require that much carbohydrate replacement. Think of your average sprint workout followed by a weight training session. In a two-hour track workout my total sprinting time is less than a minute. Throw in about 20 or so plyo jumps and med ball throws after that. How long do those last? Let’s say another minute of total work time just to have a round number. Then in the weight room I usually only do about 4-6 sets total, each set lasting about 20-30 second. So all totaled, in a 2.5-3 hour training session, my high intensity exertion time comes out to less than 5 minutes. Even including an extended warmup, the glycogen depletion is not going to be that great. So why gorge the system with glucose after the workout? I understand that the body continues to burn calories during the recovery process over the next several days after an intense workout (more than during the workout itself), but why try to jam all of those calories in at the beginning of the recovery process, rather than providing them consistently over the course of the recovery? I think the attempts at hormone manipulation don’t make that much of a difference, and will more likely work against you in the long run.
So for those who like Surge (including myself), try using only one scoop or even half a scoop after high intensity workouts.
Charlie, what do you think? What kind of post workout nutrition did you use with your sprinters? Did you even do anything specific for post workout?
Is the lightheadedness and dizziness not caused by the large insulin and glucose response to the drink - hence it was named Surge?
Is this not what we want post workout? (If the workout was intense enough)
Tim Paterson at T-mag described the feeling very well, when they first introduced Surge to the market.
I sip 1/2 my Surge during weight workouts - with no ill effects.
Maybe this protocol doesnot work so well with a sprint workout, due, to the long rest periods. (I haven’t tried it during a speed workout. Too much carbs, and liquid during speed work, makes me feel bloated and heavy).
Just my thoughts.
I’ve been using surge purely post workout for the last 2 weeks or so - mainly due to the fact that I wanted to see what all the fuss was about .
I haven’t experienced any dizziness but have experienced a slight crash later in the evening - however this may be due to the fact that I’ve changed other areas of my diet recently - mainly in the area of carbs . And probably most relevant I changed my fluid replacement drink from isostar to G-Push .
Nightmare - it seems to have taken my body about 2 weeks to get used to G-push - initially I noticed a significant drop in strength in the gym , but nothing detrimental on the track - this last week or so the strength has returned in the gym and overall I feel fresh - would my body take time to adjust to a different energy source this ?
Unfortunately now I feel quite happy with G-push the single uk supplier has stopped stocking it 
, I did manage to buy up a few extra boxes on the cheap tho .
I’ll have to see cost effective it is to order from ur side of the pond .
Thanks
Gloop
as you all know i really like surge but i would never use it pre workout. as ive mentioned before, if i take in high GI carbs before and during a workout, my stomach is un easy and i get the big insulin drop 3/4 of the way through training.
now with that said, this morning, i tried GO for the first time under fire, meaning, i had sipped one here in the store to check taste, texture and content but never post workout. this morning after my brief (20 minutes) cardio on the bike and 60 minutes of bis/tris/forearms and then down went the GO. wow this stuff rocks!!!
it is a different texture than anything else ive used but it does taste amazing. even though it is alittle thicker than surge or R4 it still went down easy and sat fine. im gonna source a larger quantity for a long term test run and ill keep you posted.
thanks clemson:clap:
The question of promoting an insulin spike after every workout is hardly analgous to massage. Opinions?
Clemson.
What do you have your athletes eating after a tempo workout?
No I didn’t see the UT research. What specifically did it say? My statement was really more of a commen sense observation.
Has anybody tried “aminogen”. You can add it onto your protein for only .60 a pound at proteinfactory. Maybe I’ll give it a try and see if I notice anything. I am still young and have not become hardened and cynical by supplement companies yet. I think the proteinfactory folks are probably pretty reliable though.
I have them add aminogen to my protein. I haven’t tried it without aminogen, so I couldn’t give you a comparison. I don’t think it makes that big of a difference, but it’s pretty cheap.
Yeah I’m drawn in by how cheap it is. I’ll experiment and let the forum know. Thanks flash.
Clemson,
I gathered your athletes didn’t take a recovery drink after tempo, but, do you have them eat a meal? If so, what do you recommend for them - or are ou not bothered as long as the have something?
for an athlete under 90kgs 2 scoops in 455ml of water is the rec mixing instructions. if you are dehydrated from either warm weather (or conditions inside) or didnt use fluid replacement, you may want to water it down a touch for less stomach upset. you dont want anything too concentrated (as far as carbs concentration goes) in the digestive system of a dyhydrated athlete. it could lead to GI distress and end up hurting recvoery more than helping it.
Proteinfactory warns you when buying BCAA, be warned about the taste!
Also, Musashi’s BCAA mix taste like crap.
I’ve used Universal Nutrition’s BCAA stack for my long special endurance workouts, and felt pretty good afterwards.
Aside from glycogen replenishment,is anyone really convinced that products such as surge with their extra BCAAs etc. are so beneficial after training? ie. in this relatively small time period with relatively small hormonal pulse.
I certainly don’t.
To me the 2 immediate aims after training - rehydrate and recarb.
I just go with a basic Glucose solution directly after training.
The % solution depends on the type of training.
I haven’t tried Surge (just can’t get it) and maybe I am missing out on something - if I am though I think it’s small.
As for isotar, gatorade etc - glucose, some flavour and water baby, glucose,some flavour and water …
I just take some maltodextrin and a simple whey concentrate - just because it may help to a get a few more amino acids (inc BCAAs) in there a little earlier.
Just maltodextrin, some simple whey and water baby, maltodextrin, some simple whey and water…