Stupid Question, Stupid Topic for Charlie

Our high school 800 team is hell-bent on winning state this year. They placed well last year and feel that this is their year.

Track practice “officially started” Monday. On tuesday they ran 6 miles. Is this insane or am I just too power/speed based? To me this is sucicide for these explosive athletes. They consider the 800 distance so they won’t really allow my input.

They won’t listen to me with regards to training. They will do what i say “usually” for lifting, but not for any track work for the “distance guys”.

Charlie, what’s your opinion?

Sounds a tad nuts for 800m training

A tad nuts but won’t destroy them or guaranteed disaster?

I guess it depends on how fast they go and what kind of athletes they are 9400/800 or 800/1500 and up). Overall, it doesn’t auger well for what’s coming next. Interval work, like the big circuit, is always preferable to continuous runs.

Thanks, it’s kind of a split. A few are shorter distance guys while the other few are pure cross country guys. I guess we’ll see what happens.

Most strength and conditioning or exercise phys books I have read classify the 800 as a 50/50 activity (50% aerobic/50% anerobic) Maybe present something like that to them.

You can only change people’s minds through proper education and that means exposure to successful methods and training courses where they are asked to question and defend methods etc. Even then it is a struggle. I have all but given up trying and that is why I started to coach myself. F*** it someone has to at least try and do something right.

I can assure you that lots of 800m runners do runs a lot longer than 6 miles. In fact I don’t think I would be able to name a world class 800m runner who doesn’t go over 6 miles of continuous running at least a few times a week. Does this mean it is right? No, but if everyone in the world is doing it then there must be some merit to it.
In most cases it is used as a tool for recovery from hard sessions and also to build up mitcohndira to improve oxygen carrying capacity. From what I have read the most effective way of improving mitochondrial density is through continuous running. Would Tempo running of less total volume still be able to provide the same benefits?
I am really interested in hearing peoples opinions on how to develop a training program for an 800m runner based off a sprinters principles. I think a lot more thought goes into a sprinters program than a typical middle distance program and would love to see some ideas down on paper on how to structure a typical week with examples from the general prep period through to the competition season.
For most 800m runners I would say a typical week would look like this

General Prep
Sunday - Long run 60-90mins at conversational pace
Monday - 50-60min run
Tuesday - Intervals - 5x1km (3)
Wed - 45-60mins
Thurs - Fartlek - 30-45mins continuous running with surges from 2-5mins with total of 15-20mins hard running
Fri-off
Sat-Cross country race or hills session - 500-600m hills, maybe 6-8 reps with jog back recovery

Pre Comp-
Sun- Long run - 60mins
Mon - 45-50mins
Tue - 12x200m (90 sec rest at 800m pace)
Wed- 40-45mins
Thurs - Intervals 6x800m (2) at 3k pace
Fri- Rest
Sat - 200-300m hills. Maybe 8-10 with walk/jog back

In season
Sun-45-60mins
Mon - 30-45mins
Tues - 600/500/400/300 (12) Race pace or faster
Wed - 30-45mins
Thurs - 5x300m (5) between 400 and 800 pace
Fri -Rest
Sat - Race

They have to combine such long runs with sprinting work, lifting (some serious hard lifting) and interval training. Long runs are used to develop aerobic capacity and the lifts are used to work against the muscle adaptation to the continuous slow running, so that you get the aerobic capacity and you don´t loose your precious speed.

I actually prefer interval training since it boosts up vo2 max and doesn´t have the negative “slowing” effect of the long runs.

You have different types of 800 runners, those who use to do the 400/800 combo and those who run 800/1500/md. The first are much more anaerobically geared (they use their speed) and the latter are based upon their aerobic strength in order to run fast.

Each type of runner has to get it´s own type of training and if both were doing the very same workouts they won´t get the optimal results.

See Vebjorn Rodal´s training leading up to the 1996 olympics, in which he placed first.

Training of Olympic 800m champion Vebjørn Rodal

Born 16.09.72 in Berkåk (Middel/North part of Norway)

Personal bests:
200 meters 21.9 (???)
400 metres: 46.56 (1994)
600 metres: 1.15.29 (1995)
600 metres: 1.15.86i (1998)
800 metres: 1.42.58 (1996)
800 metres: 1.46.28i (1997)
1000 metres: 2.16.78 (1996)

Participation in international championships:

Olympic Games:
2000 semifinal 800 meters
1996 winner 800 metres
1992 semiffinal 800 metres

World Championships:
1993 semifinal 800m
1995 number 3 800meters
1997 number 5 800meters
1999 1st round

European Championships:
1994 number 2 800 metres
1998 injured

World junior CH: semifinal 800 metres 1990
European junior CH: no 7 800 metres 1991

Progression year by year at 400 metres, 800 metres, 1000 metres and 1500 metres:
2003 1.55.42
2002 1.53.09
2000: 48.22/ 1.44.84
1999 1.45.95
1998 1.44.17
1997: 47.54 /1.44.24 3.37.57
1996: 46.78 /1.42.58 2.16.78
1995: 47.06 /1.44.05 2.17.44 3.47.16
1994: 46.56 /1.43.50
1993: 47.74 /1.45.83
1992: 48.11 /1.45.33 2.18.90
1991: 49.2 /1.47.08
1990: 49.04 /1.49.15
1989: 49.70 /1.52.34
1988: 50.13 /1.55.05
1987: 52.8 /2.06.5
1986: 2.05.6
1985: 2.11.0 (13 year)

Vebjørns 10 fastest races
1:42,58
1:42,95
1:43,25
1.43,50
1:43,56
1:43,67
1:43,96
1:43,98
1:44,05
1:44;17

Height: 1.88 m Weight: 68 kg

Training
The man who coached Vebjorn from he was nothing (just a talent) into 800m Olympic gold is Kjell Arve Husby He is a fat man who used to be sprinter on local level. He is probably the most important reason why Vebjorn succeeded togheter with Frank Brissach (also secondary coach Marius Bakken 13.06 5000m). They built a team called team Rodal they did almost all on their own with no help from Norwegian federation. Team Rodal said local store was more important for them then the Norwegian federation. Thru all Norway (and World) team Rodal was known as some funny, happy and orginal people. Almost evry time Vebjørn was on television he had to tell a joke or funny story. This is the botom line in their work: have fun and have a lot of energy. Vebjørn says he always train with high levels of energy. Offcorse he works very hard, but he maintained energy. To have variation and fun in training Rodal could do things like running up a step hill in the winter and glide down on a saucer as the break and then repeat it many times, he said 95% hard work and 5% fun. About doing training in winter is also another important point because Rodal do almost all his training at home in Norway even when it is snow and ice. Some times he goes to warmer places in winter but not for altitude. He run indoor inside a mountain (350m long) or a cinema and he also have a very fast tread mile at home in basement.
I said he have a lot of fun but he also say that he like others have to do the same though workouts. Vebjørn also talk a lot about motivation and being though and tolerate pain. He is also very much in love with nature and go hunting a lot and do not like people manipulating with nature like when he and ski star Dælie had a fight over using altitude tent something he consierd unethical. Big fight and Dælie crying,
About the though work . (All goes in systems and sycles I am not sure 100% how it goes but an overwiew with some details I can give)
Rodal`s training is very alround it is meant to train all the different aspects which can make you a sub 1.40/800m runner. That was Rodals ultimate goal: be the first to run 800m under 100 sec (1.40)

This is how the main structure look like in ex 1994 with not so much seasonal variation, but focus on all abilities all year to have continuity from year to year
Monday
1)30 min jog and flexibility
2)Aerobic intervals distances from 200 to 2000 meters

Thursday
1)Easy long run
2)Springy (see below)

Wednesday
1)Jog drills and stretch
2)Intervals distances from 100 to 1000 metres

Thirsday
1)Easy long run
2)Weights (see below)

Friday
1)Top speed (sprints 60-150m)

Saturday
1)1h 30 min Aerobic longrun (after 1 january it become fast logrun or interval)

Sunday
1)Endurance Strength stomach, back, hip, back side (after 1 jan it becomes reoccupation and flexibility)

Strength training
From 1st October to 1st January
2 days of weight training a week (one circle and one weights)
Weights:
Knee bend 12-18 x 50k (max)
Lunge 15-20 x 30k (max)
Rising 8-12 x 30k (max)
Hamstring 20-40 x Easy load apparatuses
Hips 20-25 x Easy load apparatuses
Buttocks hip backside (Hip get most load) 20-25 x 20-25k

Circle training: Hard traditional

1st January to 15th Mai
Weights once a week
More specific exercises,
More fast, longer break
Max effort every 3rd week. Half knee bends down to 90• and max up (Growing stronger in time 4-5 (series) x3-5 (reps) 120-160kg ) This is so though that next days sprint work be some easier every 3rd week

15th Mai to 15th September
Once every 9th day
Specific exercises
Maintenance
Lighter weights
Important notes
See that strength is day before sprint this to get right tension in muscles so sprint training can be max fast. But he never do the type max strength before sprint because that increases strain danger.

Springy training

From 1st October to 1st January
30 min basketball warm up
Endurance running drills/ tecninques 6-8x80m
Sprint, steps, limp, 2 legged jumps in stairs 6 floors
Step series 3-5 80m
Some workouts much drill some much stairs variation evry second weekend
Every second workouts sit up and back

1st January to 15th Mai
4-6 x 100m drill drills
5-6 x 100m Spprunglauf
2-3 x 60-80m hink
2 x 100m Indian jumps (chages of foot)
1-2 x 60m sprint sprunglauf

15th Mai to 15th September
Jog drill and sprint with gradual speed increase
3-4 x 60m sprunglauf
2-3 x 40 m Easy limp on toes
2 x 60 m long indian jumps
2 x 60m sprintsprunglauf fast

Notes
Vebjørn do 280 jumps in an easy week upto 550 in a hard week
Rodal can jump 15.30 in still standing 5 step jump
Because he always do strength and springy training all year round he do not have do start on zero again but can develop into new levels every year He do not loose his capacity it always grow a bit stronger. (Atleast that was the theory)

The reason Why team Rodal put so much focus on strength and springy is following:
Make better tecnique through better balance, avoid rotasions and make better joint sense
Strength because you need more power to drive step forward
Better ankle strength to give som exstra “snert� (more explosive ankles)

Rodal is the type of runner that is truly a specialist, being world class in only one event international class, 400 and 800 just national. This is I personally mean is because his tremendous specific speed and strength endurance from a session like 3x600m. Rodal himself tell that speed is the secret for his success, he was a modest 100m runner but compted the distance ofen because he belived to train also your weakness. The Rodal model is inspired from Britain training in the 80s. So Vebjorn tells us that whithout a strong 200m speed you can not become an international runner. At youn age he trained 18-19 year much of the focus was strength and springy not endurance from young age witch is popular today.
You see he trains like a 400m runner with much jumping, drill exercises, sprint and weigths. Then he do a moderate aerobe volume using 1500m sessions and segments of fast aerob run like 10 minutes to build aerob capacity. But belive me it was not a massive aerob capacity that made him fast, never in his life can he do under 8min in 3000m or better than 3.37 in 1500m. His massive strength is the phenomenal speed endurance which binds this together with very hard sessions, throwing up. Before Atalanta OG 96 he ran speed endurance sessions of 400s in 48 seconds.

Example week from basic training from November-March

Monday

  1. 30min aerobe run
  2. long intervals aerob ex 10x400+2x200

Thursday
1)30min aerobe run
2)Springy (like described earlier)

Wednesday

  1. 30min aerobe run
  2. Anarobic quality ex 3x600m, rest 10-12min

Thirsday

  1. Cirkel strength (traditional exercices)
  2. Long intervals aerob like Monday

Friday

  1. Rest
  2. Anaaerob sprint 3x150m + 3x120m + 3x100m, rest 3-5min

Saturday

  1. Strength work (like described earlier)
  2. Rest

Sunday

  1. Long run 45-60min in spring an 2houres in autumn.
  2. Rest

Notes
The morning run of 30min is done like this 10 fast 10 slow 10 fast.
You see it is very much quality year round evry element is always present

After 1996 Rodal never ran near his 1.42,58 again he tried a more aerobe model to come closer to his target of sub 1.40 this was not a success and he never ran under 1.44 again. He and coach Huseby admitted the mistake, but now serious injury happens and Rodal is never the same again. Rodal and Huseby started a big public fight were Vebjorn accuses Huseby for do sexual behaviour against women he coach they become enemies all the fun and jokes is gone. A trial happen and coach Huseby is not proven guilty.

I have no intentions of trying to change the coach. I was just wondering.