Strength gains

[hemann]

I can’t argue with you or with anyone really because how much my bench has suffered, but i have never read anything like that. I’ve read westside stuff, stuff on here, joe defranco, BFS, kelly baggetts stuff, critical bench.com, I can’t recall ever reading anything that suggested putting less than a full effort into a strength workout. In fact, I feel like I put less effort in sometimes than what some of those guys do.

Heck, westside maxes out in some variation every week. I do a 1 set to failure, sometimes not even doing more than 1 or 2 upper body lifts.

I think with all this workout advice and set and rep schemes and loading and deloading and what to do and what not to do… It all comes down to me having a poor diet. Im not gaining weight and not putting on any muscle. I get the feeling that I could go train with louie simmons or Joe Defranco themselves, and not get any stronger so long as I eat my 2000 calorie diet.

I need to make more of a commitment to my diet and I really believe there are a lot of workout programs out there that will work. Theres lots of strong people in this world, and even more workouts… but none of them will work if you aren’t doing the things necessary outside of the gym… ie: diet, sleep, gain weight, recovery, massage, whatever you gotta do.

[hemann]

I can’t argue with you or with anyone really because how much my bench has suffered, but i have never read anything like that. I’ve read westside stuff, stuff on here, joe defranco, BFS, kelly baggetts stuff, critical bench.com, I can’t recall ever reading anything that suggested putting less than a full effort into a strength workout. In fact, I feel like I put less effort in sometimes than what some of those guys do.

Heck, westside maxes out in some variation every week. I do a 1 set to failure, sometimes not even doing more than 1 or 2 upper body lifts.

I think with all this workout advice and set and rep schemes and loading and deloading and what to do and what not to do… It all comes down to me having a poor diet. Im not gaining weight and not putting on any muscle. I get the feeling that I could go train with louie simmons or Joe Defranco themselves, and not get any stronger so long as I eat my 2000 calorie diet.

I need to make more of a commitment to my diet and I really believe there are a lot of workout programs out there that will work. Theres lots of strong people in this world, and even more workouts… but none of them will work if you aren’t doing the things necessary outside of the gym… ie: diet, sleep, gain weight, recovery, massage, whatever you gotta do.

[hemann]

As for my squat, I think Ive probably just gotten relatively lucky with my gains. I’ve probably just been making beginner noob gains and those will eventually stop once I hit my peak.

In other words, my body is capable of squatting lets say 350 at my current size and bench pressing 250. Right now I squat 325 and bench 250. In order for me to keep going up or possibly even make quicker gains, Im going to have to add some muscle and get bigger.

I set that PR on bench press a little less than 4 years ago at a bodyweight of 200 and now I weigh 212. At that time, I could only squat 255. SO, although I’ve gone up in bodyweight, it was probably mostly in my legs and other areas other than my chest and triceps (it has, trust me)… almost like my body was balancing itself out.

So… lets say over the next few months I get my body weight up to 225 or 230 (still relatively thin for someone who is 6 feet 5!) I bet I can get my squat up to 365 or 385 or whatever and my bench press up to 285 or 300. Then hopefully i can shed some fat and get back to a solid 220 and my speed will really tone up.

(i intentionally left all of my speed work in this post, so don’t worry about that

[hemann]

As for my squat, I think Ive probably just gotten relatively lucky with my gains. I’ve probably just been making beginner noob gains and those will eventually stop once I hit my peak.

In other words, my body is capable of squatting lets say 350 at my current size and bench pressing 250. Right now I squat 325 and bench 250. In order for me to keep going up or possibly even make quicker gains, Im going to have to add some muscle and get bigger.

I set that PR on bench press a little less than 4 years ago at a bodyweight of 200 and now I weigh 212. At that time, I could only squat 255. SO, although I’ve gone up in bodyweight, it was probably mostly in my legs and other areas other than my chest and triceps… almost like my body was balancing itself out.

So… lets say over the next few months I get my body weight up to 225 or 230 (still relatively thin for someone who is 6 feet 5!) I bet I can get my squat up to 365 or 385 or whatever and my bench press up to 285 or 300. Then hopefully i can shed some fat and get back to a solid 220 and my speed will really tone up.

(i intentionally left all of my speed work in this post, so don’t worry about that

[star61]

Diet is key, but you have improved in the squat, so how does that jive? As you said, most of the strength coaches known for getting their athletes bigger and stronger lift heavy and hard with fairly high volumes.

I have seen and spoken to dozens of athletes who have been stuck at a weight for long periods of time. However I have never trained or trained with anyone that this has happened to. Everyone makes progress if you lift correctly. You may have to gain mass, but if mass isn’t a problem, that makes it easier.

And to Pioneer’s last comment, I don’t believe you will plateau if you are…

• varying the rep scheme
• rotating exercises every few weeks
• taking recovery weeks

[Pioneer]

@hemann

I can’t argue with you or with anyone really because how much my bench has suffered, but i have never read anything like that. I’ve read westside stuff, stuff on here, joe defranco, BFS, kelly baggetts stuff, critical bench.com, I can’t recall ever reading anything that suggested putting less than a full effort into a strength workout. In fact, I feel like I put less effort in sometimes than what some of those guys do.

Heck, westside maxes out in some variation every week. I do a 1 set to failure, sometimes not even doing more than 1 or 2 upper body lifts.

I think with all this workout advice and set and rep schemes and loading and deloading and what to do and what not to do… It all comes down to me having a poor diet. Im not gaining weight and not putting on any muscle. I get the feeling that I could go train with louie simmons or Joe Defranco themselves, and not get any stronger so long as I eat my 2000 calorie diet.

I need to make more of a commitment to my diet and I really believe there are a lot of workout programs out there that will work. Theres lots of strong people in this world, and even more workouts… but none of them will work if you aren’t doing the things necessary outside of the gym… ie: diet, sleep, gain weight, recovery, massage, whatever you gotta do.

It’s much easier to train at maximal levels more often if you don’t do anything but lift. However, if you are an athlete and doing sprint work, jumps, med ball throws, position specific work etc. etc you have to pick your battles and realize that you are also, if training properly, often putting maximal efforts into those as well. Something has to give. You simply can’t do everything maximally at once. Think optimal rather than maximal. Yes, there are times for max weights but it’s not all of the time.

Put a full effort into the training but there is no need to finish every set or workout with nothing left/no reps in the tank, so to speak. There should always be quality present but each time you train should not be about training at 100% intensity. Early in the block, it’s more important to have more reps left but by the end of the block (week 3 or 4) they have 0-1 rep left at the end of the worksets.

Often times I have athletes who’s bench, in particular, stalls out-for whatever reason it’s not usually their squat that levels off. In almost every case, I get them to reduce their set-rep maxes and by the end of the block, their weights have improved. We lift off of percentages of set-rep maxes and not single set rm’s or 1rm’s.

For example an overreaching week/intro. micro. might be:
week 1 at 85% of their best for 5 x 5,
week 2 at 90% of their best for 3 x 5,
week 3 at 95-100% of their best for 3 x 3
week 4 at 75-80% of their best for 3 x 2.

Most of the weeks are actually a range so the first week is actually 85-90% for 5 x 5, 90-95 for 3 x 5, etc.

[lylemcd]

@hemann

I can’t argue with you or with anyone really because how much my bench has suffered, but i have never read anything like that. I’ve read westside stuff, stuff on here, joe defranco, BFS, kelly baggetts stuff, critical bench.com, I can’t recall ever reading anything that suggested putting less than a full effort into a strength workout. In fact, I feel like I put less effort in sometimes than what some of those guys do.

Heck, westside maxes out in some variation every week. I do a 1 set to failure, sometimes not even doing more than 1 or 2 upper body lifts.

I think with all this workout advice and set and rep schemes and loading and deloading and what to do and what not to do… It all comes down to me having a poor diet. Im not gaining weight and not putting on any muscle. I get the feeling that I could go train with louie simmons or Joe Defranco themselves, and not get any stronger so long as I eat my 2000 calorie diet.

I need to make more of a commitment to my diet and I really believe there are a lot of workout programs out there that will work. Theres lots of strong people in this world, and even more workouts… but none of them will work if you aren’t doing the things necessary outside of the gym… ie: diet, sleep, gain weight, recovery, massage, whatever you gotta do.

Are you trying to be a powerlifter or a sprinter? If the former, train like a powerlifter. If the latter, train like the latter.

[hemann]

@lylemcd

Are you trying to be a powerlifter or a sprinter? If the former, train like a powerlifter. If the latter, train like the latter.

i play football so both

[star61]

@hemann

i play football so both

I’ve always said, "if you’re trying to build strength, train like a powerlifter and/or a strongman. If you’re trying to buildi mass, train and eat like a bodybuilder. If you’re trying to develop explosive strength and power, train like an olympic lifter/jumper/shotputter. Obviously, there’s a little tongue in cheek with that statement, but there’s truth in at as well.

And again, as far as lifting too heavy while sprinting, Charlie has said many times the benchpress is not overly demanding on the CNS, and you don’t run with your legs. I would be more in line with Pioneer if you were talking about your squat, but since its your bench, and you’re not a sprinter, you have alot of off season pre-season to work on strength and mass without interfering too much with your sprint training.

[robin1]

@star61

Charlie has said many times the benchpress is not overly demanding on the CNS, and you don’t run with your legs.

I actually do run with my legs; what do you run with?

[RB34]

I disagree, you don’t need to train like a bodybuilder to gain mass nor need to train like an Olympic lifter to develop strength/power. Did Charlie train Ben like a olympic lifter?

@star61

I’ve always said, "if you’re trying to build strength, train like a powerlifter and/or a strongman. If you’re trying to buildi mass, train and eat like a bodybuilder. If you’re trying to develop explosive strength and power, train like an olympic lifter/jumper/shotputter. Obviously, there’s a little tongue in cheek with that statement, but there’s truth in at as well.

And again, as far as lifting too heavy while sprinting, Charlie has said many times the benchpress is not overly demanding on the CNS, and you don’t run with your legs. I would be more in line with Pioneer if you were talking about your squat, but since its your bench, and you’re not a sprinter, you have alot of off season pre-season to work on strength and mass without interfering too much with your sprint training.

[star61]

@robin1

I actually do run with my legs; what do you run with?

I meant to say you don’t benchpress with your legs. Benchpress competes very little for the CNS or muscular demands of sprinting.

[star61]

@RB34

I disagree, you don’t need to train like a bodybuilder to gain mass nor need to train like an Olympic lifter to develop strength/power. Did Charlie train Ben like a olympic lifter?

You don’t NEED to train like a bodybuilder to gain mass, but bodybuilding (i.e. higher rep range around 8-10 and higher volume per workout) is without question a faster, more effecient way for a football player to gain mass. He won’t need all the volume, accessory exercises and single joint exercises, but the higher rep scheme and higher volumes workbest. What would you have him do to gain mass?

And yes, Ben did train like a jumper (plyos and jumps), bodybuilder (higher rep schemes on his bench press and squats) and shotputter (lots of throws and strength work). He didn’t lift Oly’s, but that was Charlie’s choice because of Ben’s less than stellar form. Charlie did like cleans, though.

[Pioneer]

@star61

I think if you and I compared actual plans we would be very close…its just in the wording. And as long as volume and frequency are controlled, and adequate time is taken between similar workouts (at least 72hrs) and recovery weeks are used as needed, recovery will not be an issue.

I suspect that is that is the case in a number of aspects-in terms of similarities, commonalities. My main issue with recovery is, if he is in an off-season program without other training concerns then for sure the weights can be pushed more but if he is doing other training, the progressions have to be more gradual and carefully monitored.

I agree that every workout cannot be maximal in terms of intensity. In fact, I think you can make great progress NEVER lifting maximally. But by that I mean intensity, or 1RM. I think you can make great strength gains doing doubles with your 3RM, maybe pushing to an actual 3RM or even a 2RM every three or four workouts. BUT, I think you need to lift close to failure, or close to the rep max, in most work sets.

I agree that gains can come about from lifting rarely or never maximally as you point out though I would certainly want the athletes to perform maximally in some blocks just not frequently. I don’t believe it is necessary to lift close to failure throughout a block but only towards the end of the block and if it is late enough in a comp. season in a sport, staying a bit under the the max. levels is enough of a stimulus to maintain strength from and to increase power outputs. This taking place while in a main. phase late taper while not overly taxing the body so the performance in the sport itself is not negatively affected.

I’m not counting those sets used to pyramid up to a weight, but you should quickly get up to your work sets and they should be performed at a very high effort with a load close to the rep max you are using. Another way to put it would be to leave only one rep in the tank on your work sets, and occasionally leaving none.

As above, while there is a time for maximal or near maximal efforts, it’s not, in my opinion, necessary or advantageous to do so during a comp. phase except perhaps in early season but when done only occasionally as the other stressors will be overly taxed. Now in the situation of a true off-season with limited or no other high intensity components to consider, the efforts can be much more intense.

However, when most athletes think in terms of submaximal, they are also thinking in terms of effort, so I believe it is important to make the disctinction and why I think you need to be careful with the term ‘submaximal’.

Submaximal efforts should be applied but intensified throughout the block. As you say, I do apply the concept of seeing how many reps left they have after each set and utilize a chart for athletes to get a feel for how many reps they “could have done” a different percentages of the set-rep maxes so they can ensure they are approx. where they are supposed to be in the cycle at any given time. The athletes know they should never start a block struggling to get the indicated sets/reps in week one and use such as chart to stay on course. Only week 3 or 4 are the times we finish a set with zero to one rep remaining though it’s not in every block.

When I think in terms of submaximal, I think in terms increasing the number of reps to say 5 per set (for strength) or to around 8 for hypertrophy. This higher rep scheme requires a lower load, but that does not mean the effort can’t still be very high. I like to back off slightly in week 1 as you do, because there is a jump in volume from the recovery period. After that, its high effort lifting for 2-4 weeks or until the next recovery week is necessary. However, anytime you feel strong in the gym, I think you should take advantage of it. I have hit many PRs, including a recent PB after a long layoff, when I had expected to go in and just have a good solid workout.

If it’s the off-season, yes, I can agree that you take advantage of those times when even unexpectedly you can push big weights. However, if it’s in the comp. phase, doing so at the wrong time can so compromise your other training and as it serves as the weights serve a supportive role for non-lifting sports you should not blow out weights just because you can since it might affect your ability to sprint or jump etc. when you need to have that in a different week in terms of volumes and intensities.

[hemann]

What do you guys think about the westside for skinny bastards routine?

I know it doesn’t work the best for speed work, but he has a set up that includes that too (at least for general off season work)

[hemann]

What do you guys think about the westside for skinny bastards routine?

I know it doesn’t work the best for speed work, but he has a set up that includes that too (at least for general off season work)

[RB34]

I never change training to increase/decrease bodyweight, that should be taken care with your diet.

Ben trained like a sprinter!!!

Show me a sprinter that trains like a powerlifter and I will show you a slow sprinter…

@star61

You don’t NEED to train like a bodybuilder to gain mass, but bodybuilding (i.e. higher rep range around 8-10 and higher volume per workout) is without question a faster, more effecient way for a football player to gain mass. He won’t need all the volume, accessory exercises and single joint exercises, but the higher rep scheme and higher volumes workbest. What would you have him do to gain mass?

And yes, Ben did train like a jumper (plyos and jumps), bodybuilder (higher rep schemes on his bench press and squats) and shotputter (lots of throws and strength work). He didn’t lift Oly’s, but that was Charlie’s choice because of Ben’s less than stellar form. Charlie did like cleans, though.

[boldwarrior]

@RB34

I never change training to increase/decrease bodyweight, that should be taken care with your diet.

Ben trained like a sprinter!!!

Should me a sprinter that trains like a powerlifter and I will show you a slow sprinter…

And that’s exactly the point - who cares if you can bench more than me or Ben? It’s not who is the strongest, it’s who is the fastest.
There is no Bench press comp after the 100 dash - otherwise go try out for a Crossfit Comp

So long as you have the muscles in the right areas for a sprinter - eg, upper hammies/glutes/lower back ect - then you’re doing the right things.

Weights are there to help you run faster - if they are not, you’re doing something wrong.

[stilljd_5]

use the current 3 x rm as a base to work from not your lifetime pb.

[star61]

@RB34

I never change training to increase/decrease bodyweight, that should be taken care with your diet.

Ben trained like a sprinter!!!

Show me a sprinter that trains like a powerlifter and I will show you a slow sprinter…

He’s not a sprinter he’s a football player!!! Show me a football player that trains like sprinter and I’ll show you a skinny, weak footballl player. And if you program lifting designed for strength or power in the same manner you program weights for hypertrophy, you miss the boat. If it were diet only, there wouldn’t be so many obese people walking around, they would all look line NFL linemen.