I have no idea what the records in lifting were but I should have added that it was off boxes about 8 to 10 inches high. I think she did 2 at that weight after working up with singles. I just remember being very surprised how far up she went given her appearance.
Snatch was Felke’s main exercise to develop her max strength according to her coach Karl Hellmann (like most of Javelin throwers), and her highest load was 105kg in 1988 (60kg in 1980, 97.5kg in 1984…). She used also a lot of medicine ball and in a less extend 1/2 squat. To compare, her great rival Whitbread who was much more physically impressive could snatch 80kg. During her career, volume of max strength exercises decreased since early '80s, and training was more and more specific to Javelin needs and her own abilities. She didn’t improved much her training tests from 1984-85 years, but she went from 75m to 80m by improving her javelin technique. Tiina Lillak was nothing special in her strength exercises compared to PF and FW, but still threw 74m.
The plateauing of her maxs in specific exercises well before reaching her longest throws might also be explained by the phenominon I’ve tried (perhaps poorly) to outline earlier (competition between very closely related activities)
Yes, that’s why i tried to illustrate in my former post. That’s a critical point in a career, the “what can we do now” thing, when an athlete has reached his/her best physical abilities and is already a WR holder. Surely in this case, the challenge by Whitbread breaking the WR and beating her at ECh and WCh was an important psychological factor for Felke.
RE: Backley’s numbers, remember he’s only training to throw something that weighs what, 1000 grams? I’m no jav thrower, but it seems heavy lifting isn’t their UTMOST priority.
RE Bugar, he was actually a discus thrower not a hammer thrower, making the bench press more important to his throwing. PLUS, he was a fixed-foot, or non-reverse thrower. These guys tend to rely on crazier lifting numbers and upper body strength than the “reversing” discus throwers. This might explain DW’s statement that lifting numbers correlated with better performances for this type of thrower. David, did the study mention speed strength exercise performances too? Maybe he improved in both elements. Also, did it say how the exercises were performed? I understand that a lot of European throwers bench(ed) with some kind of bounce pad on their chests because they felt it was more specific to the throw.
PJ and others mentioned the oddities in comparing test results for these throwers to their actual throwing performances, and how sometimes the tests aren’t indicative of how good their throwing was at the time. All the talk about RFD and limit strength is interesting, but maybe when guys like Hohn and Zelezney were at their best, it’s because they just got better at throwing. I’ve heard some throwers/coaches say that at the elite level, pretty much everybody is strong and fast as hell, it’s technique and feel for the event that make the last bit of difference. Javelin seems to be extraordinarily feel based, especially the “soft step” crossover and the “coughing” feeling throwers describe at the release. There isn’t much time to apply force to the jav between that last foot touchdown and the release…so while extreme athleticism is a must, there’s more at play. Apparently Zelezny’s technique is tough to emulate, and just worked for him (really well!).
Somebody mentioned the phenomenon that athletes’ speed peaks at a young age while strength still increases. Is this true for all athletes, or is that from a sprinting perspective?
It appears as if one possible theory, regarding the topic of performance results vs strength/speed/technique increases in training, is that each athletes competitive progression may be roadmapped by evaluating the their initial level of abilities in conjunction with their observed developed abilities and the particular sequence of development over time. (Longest sentence ever.)
My theory being that every athlete begins their competitive career with certain abilities developed to higher levels than others. Hence, a different starting point for all. Thus, different progressions for all.
When we assess which abilities are of primary importance with respect to the sport/event, we may then narrow down/streamline the training parameters.
Thus, we must also consider how different athletes abilities have developed over time, and compare this tracked progress in training with competitive performance results. (e.g. this thread)
When this assessment is performed we observe that one athlete’s performance increase is due to a development of limit strength. In contrast to another athletes increased performance being a reflection of increased RFD. In contrast to yet another athletes increased performance being related to increased technical profiency.
This tells us that optimal levels of strength/speed/technical proficiency must be developed in order to excel at the competitive level. However, each optimal level of strength/speed/technique must be developed specifically in relation to the biomechanics of each individual athlete.
I personally find that the assessment of these different variables leads to highly relative/subjective conclusions.
The reason for this is that although performance results and training logs may be observed, it is very difficult to summate and compare every facet of training which develops concurrently with the development of the athlete.
Lastly, at the end of the day, when we observe and compare training logs with competitive performance results, there is always and most importantly the fact that sometimes every athlete has a bad day/competitive season. This reality may be independent of increased developmental abilities which are observed in training.
Point being, if we miss the forest and only see trees, we may simply overlook the fact that some competitive performance results are simply a function of physiological/psycho/social factors (mood, state of mind, arousal levels, nutrition, sleep, etc.) which are absent in most training logs and record books.
James
After further review, that may only make sense to me. LOL
James
P o s t D e l e t e d.
Charlie
Are you stating that as you reach the end of the season (taper) you should eliminate speed-related, general activities such as plyos, olympic lifts, etc. in favor of speed-related, specific activities (specific to movment that is). Is that to allow a refining process in the play between force/speed production and coordination?
What about strength-related, general activities (or limit strength exercises)? Should they remain until the last 10-14 days before major meet? or should they be eliminated sooner than the plyos, olympics, etc.?
Scott Weiser
No, but I am saying that a slight reduction in competing stressors brings up the main peak of the critical element (speed, in my case) and the taper of elements will begin with those closest to the speed itself. Nothing’s ever simple, as a replacement of Olympic lifts with general lifts, would, of necessity increase the overall number of lifts required in one session to hit the same number of motor units, but, in my scheme the bench press would be dropped last, as it can maintain a strong stimulus close to the meet, involving approx 35% of the MUs, without overly affecting any of the main muscle groups required for the event. I’d also keep these activities going till closer than 10 days out. We covered this recently in another thread, and there was a detailed discussion of reasoning behind this in the General vs Specific discussion in the Forum Review, available from the site.
A link to a good predictor test:
http://www.intrex.net/klubkeihas/ar...0/article10.htm
that’s combinaison of various tests, i have similar thing with USSR hammer with a formula based on various training tests which predicted the competition performance, i don’t have the javelin one unfortunately. GDR used also these tests, but in other purpose, they used it to check javelin technique level, if your tests results were sub-norm, you had a great technique.
“If limit strength were a critical factor in determining who can be a successful jav thrower, we would expect that: a) javelin throwers would be much stronger than the general population (undoubtedly true); and b) there would be a direct correlation among elite jav throwers between limit strength and throwing results (I don’t think such a correlation would be found).” You’re right, no corelation can be found, that’s why only a complex formula with speed, explosiveness and max strength can predict javelin performance.
J.P. You mentioned having a USSR hammer pre-dictor…LOVE to see this…you can e-mail me at: CoachMac2003@hotmail.com
A funny sidebar…chatting with Youri Seydech and he told me his age group club coach had to LIE to get him in the Russian hammer school as he couldn’t meet the minumum standards in a couple of tests …food for thought…maybe a crumb…grin Have a GREAT day! mac~
Pierre Jean,
Great knowledge…your posts are like the purest french wine…
This is an exerpt from NSA 2/3.97
“By using a regressive method to analyse the test data, we were able to obtain the equations of regression of the dependance of the results on the apparent physical conditioning. The following equation was obtained:
R = 18.75 - 0.132 x (snatch) + 0.155 x (squat) + 0.174 x (clean&jerk) + 1.218 x (throwing shot backwards) + 0.244 x (throwing the shot forwards) - 0.07 x (standing long jump) - 0.514 x (standing triple jump)
Here R is the result of the hammer throw. These are the results of controlled exercises. Thus, on the basis of this information concerning the physical readiness of hammer throwers, applied accordingly to the regressive equation, it is possible to calculate their possible result”.
Often the estimated and actual hammer throw perf isn’t the same. And as you said, even at his best level, Sedykh’s control tests indicated a much lower HT perf: in 1984, he threw 86m34 while his tests predicted 76.70, same in 1988, he threw 85.14, far better than a supposed 79.37. Btw, Marita Koch wasn’t selected in GDR youth programs at age 15-16 because was not physically mature enough. Good for her, she remained coached by Meier!
I’ve tried to establish such formula for 100m, but it doesn’t work at all for mutliple reasons. For long jump, my research are quite good and i think it’s possible to have accurate estimation but i’m still working on it.
Clemson: thanks, and i hope to get better with age!
Pierrejean,
I don’t think the regression formula by NSA you presented is of practical application. The minus before two of the variables (SLJ and STJ) gives only apparent mathematical validity and it would be better if R were presented as percentage improvement with repsect to a baseline.
In general, I prefer non-linear relationship between variables (in this case different strength performances) and sport performance (without consideering technical proficiency) or statistical correlation between the same variables and sport performance as a more or less reliable tool for planning long-term training.
Linear regression models are a poor tool for predicting sport performances.
Your final comment about Seydech speaks volumes about predictors! Too often, the preparation of athletes for their sport is stymied by the need to get past irrelevant, and often conflicting tests before they can even take part!
Actually, the formula wasn’t just a gadget to evaluate how far athletes can throw without actually throwing, it was used to evaluate the individual technical level. In Sedykh case, as the predicted result was better than the actual competition result, he compensated with an outstanding technique. On the other hand, they gave the example of an ahtlete who was supposed to throw 79.44m but only managed 67.48. Similar methods were used in GDR and Czechoslovakia, where training age, body height and weights were taken in account to draw different thower types.
I think these kind of formula can be applied to every throw but Javelin Throw where there are very different types of thrower at very high level (common points in physical abilities between Tiina Lillak and Fatima Whitbread, Jan Zelezny and Seppo Ratti?).