Static vs. Dynamic Stretching before workouts

My point is that many gurus talk about stretching before speed and power training because they read a few studies on acute stretching and powerloss.

Journal of Sports Sciences, May 2005; 23(5): 449 – 454

That study showed 20m sprint times were slowed by acute passive stretches. My point is that stretching in general might be an issue to many athletes. Highly trained athletes might need PNF or other modalities to be prepared. I find that PNF overtime opens up the hips and conditions the athlete by fooling the nervous system into relaxing.

With over 8 types of PNF you have many options and protocols.

I have the document of file. I can e-mail it to you. Post your email address

[QUOTE=Clemson]
Starting (when the body is cold) with movements that include loaded positions (bodyweight) in extreme ranges of motion can cause microtears and possible injuries later in the workout.

QUOTE]

What do you consider extreme ranges of motion? Unless we are sitting, lying or in liquid we are always loaded. Would a BW squat be considered a extreme range of motion? If this is the case then I probably get microtears when I take two steps at a time going up stairs.

Stress will all be dependent on an athletes relative strength, a bodyweight exercise can be completely diffrent stimulus for diffrent athletes.
Hell, jogging in a warm-up could be a high level of stress for an untrainied athlete who never jogs.

Were is the research that outlines what is a “safe” protocol for a dynamic warm-up, such as time, activities, physiological response before range of motion can be addressed ect.

I practice dynamic warm-ups with my athletes I am just astonished with the type of activities that will cause these “crippling” microtears. I would like to have some research based evidence which says we must due X amount of low level activity (jogging, static streching, biking) before we can participate in dynamic flexibility execises or else performance will be diminished and possible injuries will happen due to microtears.

The problem I run into working as a S&C coach is that when I work with a team I usually have an hour to get them warmed up and get a productive workout done. This means that spending MORE than 15 minutes on general warm-up drastically reduces our training time to get some work done. When I do speed dev with a team I usually make the warm-up longer 20-25 minutes.

How long do most coaches here take to do a general warm-up before lifting? And speed?

What are acute passive stretches? Static stretching?

From this thread, I gathered the following:

  • Heating up the body through a warm up jog(800m) is probably the most crucial
  • You shouldn’t be tight when its time to workout. Stretching before the work out is just a last minute aid, and if you are tight you should ask yourself why were you not so prepared, and if you should even be working out that day
  • Warmup jog, Pushups, situps, lunges, strides, A/B skips, and stretching the hips are great components of a warm up.

I thought I knew what A,B, and C skips were, but I’m probably wrong. So, can anyone please tell me :slight_smile:

Were is the research that outlines what is a “safe” protocol for a dynamic warm-up, such as time, activities, physiological response before range of motion can be addressed ect.

I practice dynamic warm-ups with my athletes I am just astonished with the type of activities that will cause these “crippling” microtears. I would like to have some research based evidence which says we must due X amount of low level activity (jogging, static streching, biking) before we can participate in dynamic flexibility execises or else performance will be diminished and possible injuries will happen due to microtears.

The problem I run into working as a S&C coach is that when I work with a team I usually have an hour to get them warmed up and get a productive workout done. This means that spending MORE than 15 minutes on general warm-up drastically reduces our training time to get some work done. When I do speed dev with a team I usually make the warm-up longer 20-25 minutes.

How long do most coaches here take to do a general warm-up before lifting? And speed?

A valid and reliable setup for such research would be difficult to achieve; external and internal temperature must be standardized; muscle tone must be standardized (kind of impossible, since it varies intra-individually and between people in general, etc.) So, if you anyhow find specific research on the subject, be watchful.

Don’t you think it’s better to heat up the body before starting a dynamic stretching routine? It’s quite understandable, that when being short with time, we try to cut some corners and directly start with a “dynamic warm-up” – heating the body and stretching at the same time (what could be more efficient?). However, it’s not optimal, and for athletes that need optimal circumstances, there are no quick routines.

There is no point in undermining the issue with “micro tears” when talking top level athletes. A minor tear in a muscle and a tendon will have it rip like paper (once a small cut, the paper tears nicely and without effort) when sufficient forces are put to motion (albeit it’s more common to have tears from previous trainings than due to pre workout stretching). However, this mainly applies to sprinting or jumping (or similar specific events) at high levels. In team sports, a shorter warm-up will probably be sufficient since the power output is lower, and as you said, time is a factor.

A decent warm-up before speed might be everything from 45min. to 2h, depending on circumstances and the training year. In GPP it might be shorter (45min-1h) and in competition it might take up to 2h (including first and second call-room in major championships that breaks up the routine somewhat).

Personally, I like “lapped” warm-ups:

  • starting out with some jogging (or/and other similar stuff)
  • some very easy stretching
  • some more jogging
  • more stretching and perhaps easy medicine ball
  • more jogging (if needed) or few drills including some dynamic stretching
  • drills and medicine balls
  • running
  • sprinting
    The outline above is not exact, but you get the idea. The routine might also vary a little depending feel and what practice is at hands. But the idea is a kind of an interactive approach.

This is the warm up an athlete of mine was doing last season; some of her feelings/comments follow and some action taken -whatever she felt as appropriate, as there was no other help:

4 x 50m jog

50m running backwards
(jog back was added later on between these because of the cold)

40m side running
(jog back was added later on between these because of the cold)

30m walking hamstring stretches
(jog back was added later on between these because of the cold)

40m arms
(jog back was added later on between these because of the cold)

40-50m high skips
(jog back was added later on between these because of the cold)

2 x 30m walking high knee/run 20m
2 x 30m side knee/run 20m
2 x 30m hip circles/ run 20m
2 x 30m high straight leg shuffles

Standing Claw
Ankling
Butt kicks
A skip
B skip
Straight leg shuffles

Her comments: didn’t feel stretched, didn’t feel warmed up -especially in cold weather- felt stiff next day (especially after weight sessions).

After some time she decided to start doing some stretching on her own before the actual session and after the above warm up. She also added extra stretching at the end of each session.

The programme was not good enough in the first place, but the above warm up didn’t help either, something she has realised even more so this season…

Comments?

If you watch the Speed and Strength DVD you can see that Charlie sees the warm up as a very important aspect of the session. In the case in point the athlete thinks they are warmed up when in CFs eyes they are not.

For me the biggest problem with this is time. It takes a long time to warm up properly so athletes avoid it.

Thanks Lorien for explaining the issues in more detail.

Nomad- We still have research that shows that warm-ups are not effective or injury preventive. I will post more later.

A warmup of 45+ minutes?!?!

I usually take 15-20 minutes…with everything I do.

A very famous coach who,s name I would rather keep a secret told me its Ok to do myofacial stretches befor workouts and in between sets. I never really beleived this so i never did it but I bumped into Guy Voyer last night and had to ask and I got a
“Dont do that!” with a strong french accent.Its amazing the difference in opinion with high caliber coaches.

WSTRAINER

What people “know” and what is are often two different things.
You could argue that it’s easier for the moron to go with what is than what he knows.
Of course, the people in the “know” are not arguing about whether I’m a moron but, rather, the degree of completeness.

Well, I tend to treat ’warm-up’ and ’preparation’ as synonyms. There is more to it than just reaching first sweat.

Isn’t there a point were a warm-up can reach a point of dimishied returns due to being to long.

I always felt when I warmed-up (wrestiling, not track) that if I started to early there was a certain drain by taking to long of warm-up because of the excitatiobn level of getting ready to compete. Very much like how Zatsiorsky compares a training 1RM to a competitive 1RM. There is a higher level of performance when competition comes into play. I think that in training this high level of excitation should be used sparingly because the stresses are much higher.

When I am working with athletes I try to limit the high emotional stresses of lifting heavy weights. (yelling, phyching up) Plan out competitive days inthe weightroom or any were else and it will reduce the possibility of under-recovery. A good example is watching world class weightliftiers in the training hall, there is not a lot of phyching up, they just go in and do there bussiness like it was any other training day

Does this mean that when a track athlete warms-up for a meet and prepares for 45+ minutes they are staying relaxed this whole time, or is there an individual diffrence in length of warm-up due to how one athlete can relax compared to another.

There are individual and circumstantial differences. Time of year factors in too. Any top athlete can tell you it’s easier to warm up in the max taper period than in the early SPP period, due to loading (varied workload relative to recovery) and output (peak performance utalizes a higher percentage of all available fibre during the work, setting the stage for a higher percentage to relax between sessions).
The point is, warm up sessions and the rules that guide them are not written in stone.

Agreed that WU can be too long. But maybe you should do “too much”, then cut it back to find the right amount/intensity. I’ve found that the WU that was enough to get me to a certain level is insufficient to get me to a higher level. So as the athlete improves, he will need more WU (generally) than he did before. Of course your work capacity (using this term the way Louie Simmons does) must increase, not just for the reasons usually stated, but also so you can get through the WU you need without being tired at the end of it :rolleyes: