if you have to elevate your heals whne u squat becaue you cant get into the postion otherwise you shouldnt be squating. u lack the range of motion to complete the excercise properly so instead you use a crutch ie elevating your heals and you completly change the biomechanics of the squat in essence you arent even squating and you definatly cant do it in the proper wayto advance sporting ability. the solution is simple stop squating and develop the flexability you require to get into the proper position.
I think thats a bit of an extreme stance to take JC (no pun intended). The biomechanics will be slightly changed yes, but not necessarily a big problem. If raising your heels lets you get into a full squat then you will recruit the hams more anyway vs a half squat. OLers sometimes have quite high heels, are they not even squatting?
I would advise to raise the heels if necessary to full squat and work on your flexibility at the same time.
i say this because i train movement not muscle so changing one thing one muscle contracting at a given time opposed to another contracting or relaxing at a given time changes the motor pattern and thus reinforces improper feedforward mechanisms. can u train with you heals upin the squat? yea but your not really giving any thought to how squating will improve sporting effeciency (biomechanics). essentially you are training to strengthen the muscles that you use instead of the movement.
Arnold recommends doing squats either flat footed or with a slight, approx 1", heel raise. Normally you find shorter people can do squats flat footed no worries, but the taller people tend to lean too far forward at times. Using a small heel elevation generally takes that forward lean away and corrects squat technique.
James, do you like to use technical words to make you feel intelligent?
…you completly change the biomechanics of the squat in essence you arent even squating and you definatly cant do it in the proper wayto advance sporting ability…
That’s nonsense. Squatting in o-shoes is somehow not squatting? Then what is it? And there we go folks, if you wear o-shoes you magically remove all gains that you normally have when squatting. And as for this:
i say this because i train movement not muscle so changing one thing one muscle contracting at a given time opposed to another contracting or relaxing at a given time changes the motor pattern and thus reinforces improper feedforward mechanisms.
That reads like mumbo jumbo. Would you care to rephrase it in english?
can u train with you heals upin the squat? yea but your not really giving any thought to how squating will improve sporting effeciency (biomechanics). essentially you are training to strengthen the muscles that you use instead of the movement.
All this for the sake of a half inch heel. Wow. Biomechanics are so massively changed? Really? Back in the real world, not everyone has perfect flexibility etc. So you make do with what you can while you work on the weaker parts. And that’s assuming that anything you’ve said makes any sense. Which I’m not so sure it does.
If you meant ankle ROM is important, say ankle ROM is important.
I believe that even if you have your heels elevated, if you go low enough, your hamtrings will be firing plenty, if you want to work your hamstrings or the posterier chain to a greater extent, why not use other exercises which are suited better for them (good morning, straitleg deadlift, hyper and reverse hyper extesion). Do both, but for me i can get in a much better position with heels elevated, might not left as much but i believe I get more from each squat I do w/ heels elevated.
dave thanks for the well crafted insults i wasnt aware that using the correct words was necessarily technical but thats just me. i dont mind you opposing my ideas but please keep it civil. no on to your comments.
biomechanics is very precise changing one variable can upset the entire system so yes having your heals elevated does change the biomechanics of the squat. my second comment about the feedforward system ties to this. the system is not variable once an action occurs it cant bechanged by the idividual as it can during slower feedback mechanisms. this is why i was stressing the importance of performing the squat in a certain way to attain a certain goal ie transfer to sport. i never said squating in o-shoes was not squating but this to changes the biomechanics of the excercise. this is evident from people saying it works my hamstrings more when i perform it this way as opposed to that way.
if your interested in gross results, not quite attaining your maximum ability then sure half an inch doesnt matter. you can tilt slightly this way or that way but if you want to be the best you can be you have to be a stickler for details.
if you cannot get into a certain position you should not compensate the shortcomming. position is everything in athletics and so proper position should always be reinforced in training.
just becaue you dont understand the argument doesnt mean you need to go crazy insulting me instead of addressing my points or for that matter making any of your own.
p.s. i did NOT mean to say ankle ROM. i meant to say what i said.
Squating is only specific to squating, so doing it with heels raised should not hurt sport performance.
your right there is not a direct transference to athletics, but when squating properly the joint angles achieved and the motor patterns used do have a transfer to athletics. for example biomechanically speaking their is a idea joint angle in which to squat while recruiting say the hamstrings just like there are ideal joint angles in a sprint start. if you study the starts of special olympics athletes you will find that they achieve the same joint angles as elite sprinters. so there is a relationship between joint angle and the most effecient expression of muscular power.
Keep in mind that sprinting shoes produce different angles compared to sneakers or high jump shoes. Long jump shoes are different from triple jump shoes…etc. Some runners prefer a stiff and high forefoot whereas others prefer flexible and lower plates. I guess the same goes for squatting in ol-shoes? There’s always variability, so we can’t be too picky with theoretical optima because they tend to change with the task at hands (we don’t consider squatting with sprint spikes as a good option 
).
I prefer ol-shoes because they feel stable and safe, thus indirectly will allow for greater force output (perhaps that’s why they are invented in the first place; they maximise performance, as do different spikes for different events). However, there’s plenty of room for personal preferences too. I think it’s best to be pragmatic here.
I am perfectly calm. No craziness here. I understand your points and I don’t agree. OK?
Squatting is not sprinting. It’s not a specific movement, so changing a non specific movement produces a movement which is still non specific. The concern over a heel? I simply don’t see it.
I’m all for being a stickler for detail - where it’s appropriate. But you also have to be realistic at some point. According to your reasoning, you would deprive someone of squatting and it’s associated benefits because you want them to wear O-shoes (in which they can squat safely)? Which is the greater risk?
Proper form should be reinforced where it’s appropriate. No-one ever learned how to run by squatting in a gym.
Do not mistake my tone for lack of understanding. Analysis paralysis and misguided notions of specificity is something much worse.
hey dave good to see you calm lol. listen i completly respect your right to disagree. allow me to address your points…
you are absolutly right squating is not sprinting . it is not a specific movement. but to me squating is reinforcing the proper motor patterns as to at what angle a muscle should fire in a kinemetic sequence. that does have a transfer to sprinting, squating does have a great transfer to sprinting if you trian this way because it teaches the muscles that it is most advantageous to fire at this angle so when you sprint your muscles will fire at the time and postion that will produce the optimum external force not internal force. that is the transfer from squating to sprinting for me, a reinforcement of proper feedforward motor patterns.
now because squating is non specific as you said it you can train the muscles any way you choose and not necessarily hamper your sprinting you may even improve. but to what degree? i want the highest rate of improvement from my training. so for me and for proper reinforcment of the feedforward system one variable is important otherwise your just traiing the muscles to get stronger.
i wouldnt deprive someone of squating i would put them in a position tell them to hold it until they can replicate the postion and motor patterns dynamically in a squat. thats the safest way. if i didnt it would be like saying “o its ok if john doesnt have his arms at a 45 degree andgle while benching and that inturn puts his shoulders in a dangerous postion.” no you teach then you do and some people dont want to take the time to learn so they are hampered in the future by what they should have learned in the past. precision is all im interested in 100% of my bodies capabilities nothing else when i step on the track i want every step to be the same every stride to look exactly the same and exactly as effeceint as the last. look at old film of borzov in his olympic winning 100m his legs didint deviate one iota. it was precision. measure the joint angles every one was the same provding for effecient use of the bodies created forces. thats why im such a stickler on things like squats because everything you do in training everything you do in life has a transfer how you perform in your choosen sport. am i perfect in everything i do ? hell no lol HELL NOOOOOOOOO!!! but i work towards it.
I understand where you are coming from, in that if you want to do something, you want to do it well.
But i have to disagree about the heels.
I also disagree ( not that you James have mentioned it, but people do) about using free weights only v’s also using machines. My personal experience from half the stuff i use being machines and the progress i have made on the track tell me so.
To me, gym is to train the muscle system, and the track-med balls-plyro’s-ect are there to transfer that Gym into something usefull on the track. I have never met anybody who only does gym and can run. You can hold gains from running by using gym, for a little while at least, and to a certain extent.
Its the running on the track that make you fast or fit. Its the gym that makes you stronger. Its the drills that make you more efficient and run correctly. Its the med balls and plyros that help you more explosive. Its the stretching and hurdle work that make you go through a full range of motion.
those are the things you goto get into a program to help you acheive perfection.
Squating on a small block or whatever aint going to make a pinch when it comes to running a fast time. throw a med ball the wrong way or with the wrong angles (arm wise) dont matter, except on acceleration med ball drills.
Get your angles right on drills, hurdles, stretching and running.
The angles that matter are the leg angles of when you are running. Develop these by correct planing of your training. watch GPP essentials for learning how to do so.
Ben did not elevate the heels and lifted in flats (Lifting shoes do elevate the heel a little bit)
If squating (and weightlifting in general) is non-specific, why would the kinematic sequence in lifting carry over to sprinting? How does Borzov’s great sprinting technique apply to the squating arguement as he’d stopped squatting before he reached his peak years?
the carryover is as basic as muscels firing at the most optimum force production for the given task based on joint position/angle. i used borzov as a example not in relation to squats but the importance of consistency in training as it pertains to precision in sprinting, not to suggest that my way of training was his.
IMO if you don’t have good enough flexibility to squat without heels elavated you need to try and improve it, not so you can squat, but rather that it’s a poor reflection of (generally) your dorsi flexion.
IMO you can still squat with heels elevated.
Yes mechanics are changed - but so what?
If you have x degrees of dorsiflexion when squating - do you think it changes when sprinting?
Of course not.
I try to get my athletes to squat properly.
If they can’t and …
- don’t have good enough flexibility they work on improving it gradually.
- They reduce the height of the raise every week slowly coming to flat stance
- We watch for compensation - such as forward leans etc. and bad posture, too wide a stance and quad dominance or quad hypertonicity. etc.
Consistency in training can be argued to support any approach and may help more because of its effect on reducing adaptation stresses.
In Borzov’s case, it was Petrofski’s (then) novel idea of constantly checking Speed (flying 30m) Vs Speed End (flying 60m) to see which needed support to maintain consistent performance in sprint training, resulting in consistent meet results (unbeaten in 1971 and 1972)
Is there anywhere we can learn more of Borsovs training? Thanks