I have one flat foot and one foot with a proper arch. This causes my left foot to point 12’ and my right to stick out at about 1:20. My whole right leg will twist to match if I relax it. I’ve had trouble with the adductors in my right leg -during that time I wasn’t squattin- should my squat technique resemble that imbalanced tortion? I was thinking about doing squats with alternating symmetrical foot/knee angling, rather than the asymetrical style I naturally fall into. Should I squat in the same inserts I run in?
I found feet pointing slightly out being the most natural of stances – for squatting as well as for taking a dump. When a natural squat technique is achieved (feels good for the athlete and looks ok by the coach), case closed … time to focus on loads and more loads.
True.
I remember a lady at a seminar once saying
“Ah there is no point in me trying to squat - I can’t squat properly anyway”
The response was -
“if you can sit on a toilet - you can squat! - it’s the same thing”
Yeah, I remember when I lived in Japan public restrooms didn’t even have toilet seats. You had to pop a squat over an open drain. You’d better be able to squat low there!!
This is somwhat true, but remember we are all built diffrently and sometimes athletes naturally have an extrnally rotated femur or difftrent anthopometrics or unilateral diffrences. Coaches sometimes get caught up in trying to make everyone fit into one perfect template which is just unrealistic.
I recall charlie talking about a sprinter in CFTS that they fixed and after she was “fixed” her running got worse and had back spasms I believe.
I would say most sprinters have externally rotated femurs and that is the number one reason they have hamstring/groin strains. Externally rotated femurs are not natural, they are a sign of dysfunction (usually associated with anterior pelvic tilt and lordosis), and correcting that should be more important than squatting the most weight using compensating muscles.
“Fixing” athletes is not going to work in the long run (and that was the case with Charlie’s runner). When correcting alignment the body has to be treated as a whole…of course the runner had spasms, her body wasn’t used to that artificially created position. And most importantly the treatment must be active, not just having the athlete lie on a table while someone else does the work/fixing.
Most sprinters? I don’t know about that. Maybe some sprinters, many sprinters, but I don’t think I would say most. I don’t know if an externally rotated femur is the #1 reason for groin/hamstring strains, but I doubt it. Hip flexor/extensor imbalance, knee flexor/extensor imbalance, poor running or lifting mechanics, etc., etc. These statements are too bold. Is this another post that is going to revolutionize sprinting and weightlifting?
“Externally rotated femurs are not natural.”
This concrete statement is, in and of itself, completely false. If you can get to a hospital (or university) cadaver lab, or an anthropology lab, check out the get amount of variation in femoral head to shaft orientation. You will find that some femurs do, in fact, naturally sit in an externally rotated position, while some sit in an internally rotated position, with most being (roughly) straight. You should only have to look at about 5 femurs to find one that in not ‘normal’. Along the same lines, is genu varum (bowleggedness) unnatural? No. Is there a normal elbow carrying angle? No. I understand that the hip is more dynamic than the knee or elbow, but there are genetic (and developmental) anamolies that occur with suprising frequency, that would lead to variations in drill technique. I believe Siff described this as ‘Style’, instead of ‘Skill’.
well personally i dont do a traditional two footed squat anymore.
I tend to always use 1 leg bulgarian squats, exaggerated lunges, setups or box squats.
With back/front squats i found i was too hung up with numbers.
Also i found even though i could squat upto 2.5x BW i wasnt strong in the actual sprint positions. For example high knees , A’s B’s i found myself weak at the highest knee position.
A two footed squat will not address this position or one leg may become stronger than the other (this has happened to me)
I find im improving much more now than before.
Just my personal expierence…
This is a great post. I remember talking with a respected physical therapist/educator who teaches a high-level biomechanics certification and one of the primary reasons he has people who go through his advanced certification go through cadaver anatomy is to point out the differences from person to person and how “normal” and “standards” are neither normal nor standard. Individual differences are so common that you just can’t make statements like the one made in a previous post.
You may be correct and the bottom line is it’s about performance, not squatting or weightlifting. Was it James Smith (or maybe he got it from someone else; by the way, James, where have you gone?) who said “weightlifting for anyone but powerlifters and oly-lifters is primarily GPP”. Bondarchuk uses step-ups as his basic leg strength exercise and you can’t argue with his success. I typically have beginners do lots and lots of single-leg work initially and work 2-legged exercises in progressively and systematically.
Relax, nothing revolutionary here 
Ok, how do you define poor lifting or running mechanics if external rotation is just fine, foot abduction is just fine, lordosis/kyphosis posture is the way to go? I mean, where do we stop?
Do you think that external femurs and anterior pelvic tilt have nothing to do with hip flexor/extensor imbalance, knee flexor/extensor imbalance or poor mechanics?
Sorry, I don’t have access to a cadaver lab. What do you mean by ‘naturally sits in a - position’?
Lets not confuse disease/birth defects with the majority of the population. I think that genetics should not be the first thing to blame (as it usually is), but we should first go to the obvious and primary cause of these deviations: muscles. One of my favorite mottos is: unless you are hit by a truck there’s a chance something can be done about it. Why all this discredit to our own bodies? You’d be amazed what can be done to severe postural deviations with proper stimulus and a little time (and the effects it has on function and pain).
That’s because squats are general training to sprints. To strengthen the sprint position do sprints, hills or weighted running A’s etc. I too have had the same experience with squats making things worse in terms of imbalance from left to right (that eventually lead to disc herniation in the lumbar spine). You first need to take care of the underlying disparity between the hips to gain full benefits from squats (I’m now squatting almost twice the weight I was before, and most importantly pain free). I sometimes throw in a few one legged squats for variety not because of specificity.
I’m sorry, but I’m amazed at the opposite sometimes. You’d be amazed at what can’t be done to severe postural deviations. Not saying posture can’t be improved, but there are limitations. I believe you’ve done a poor role in defining your solutions. It sounds like you’ve gone through a course (possibly with the NASM) where they told you about all of the magic you’re going to be able to fix with people’s posture, and muscle imbalance this, reciprocal inhibition that, etc., etc. There are limitations. I have one guy who we will work on his posture (hip, shoulder, you name it) for an hour and the second he leaves his posture goes to sh#t.
In conclusion, I still believe squatting is a basic weightlifting technique that should not be given too much credit for creating muscle imbalance. In appropriate training, this effect is negligible and will be addressed with appropriate training balance.
I didn’t say squats caused the imbalance, squats made the underlying imbalance worse.
And nope I have nothing to do with NASM and I can assure you there is nothing macigal about doing corrective exercise for posture/alignment. You said you worked with a client’s posture, but what kind of work was it? Did you or the client do the work?
You’re right, you didn’t say that squats create the imbalance. But your argument is still flawed. It’s like saying bench presses are bad for your shoulders. They’re only bad for your shoulders if your program is bad. There are deeper issues. In high school I blamed the bench press for my shoulders hurting and when a physical therapist told me it was because I should only go to 90-degrees, I thought, tada, my problem is solved. But the neglect to my rotator cuff and back musculature (classic football programming) was a more significant problem. Magical imbalances, I guess. And you still refuse to substantiate your position with something more objective. So there’s nothing magical but there are “amazing” changes?
In regards to my client, I worked with him in conjunction with a massage therapist who is also skilled in MAT. He has a winging scapula(e) and a significant leg strength/mobility/stability imbalance. Even now, with more mobility, improved stability, balanced strength, and a better understanding of proper mechanics, he still moves very “restricted”.
Flexibility:
Internal/External Rotators of the Shoulder
Pectoralis/Latissimus Dorsi/Teres Major
Hip Flexors/External Rotators
Neck Flexors/Lateral Flexors
Strength:
VMO/Glutes [incl. glute medius work]/Hamstrings/Spinal Erectors [Cook Hip Lift, Side-Lying Hip Ext. Rot./Abduction, Bulgarian Split Squats, Romanian Deadlifts, Peterson Step-Ups, Floor Bridging, Prone Leg Curls, GHR’s, Snatch-Grip Deadlifts from Blocks, Back Extensions, etc.]
Scapular Retractors/Depressors [Cable Rows, Bent-Over Rows, Chins/Sternum Chins, Scapular Depression performed on Seated Dip or Pulldown Machines]
Thoracic Extensors [Prone Back Extension w/emphasis on Thoracic Extension, spinal column by column extension if you will]
Neck Extensors [bodyweight tempo extension, postural emphasis]
Can you show me the missing link for correcting posture/imbalance? It’s simply math:
168 Hours in a Week
12 Hours of Emphasized Training [if you’re lucky]
60 Hours of Scheduled Desk Work [if he doesn’t want to give up his house and lifestyle; and if he wants to be successful business wise]
Countless hours of neglect
I didn’t say bench presses are bad either 
Exercise in itself is not bad/harmful (we agree on this), it’s the dysfunctional body that comes to the exercise so to speak. For example the squat will cause greater imbalance if you constantly load one hip more than the other because of an imbalance that was already there before you even touched the bar. So it’s not the program to blaim either, it’s the sedentary lifestyle that we live. When we sit most of the day and then do some repetitive motion in the evening as a hobby, muscle imbalance is sure to follow. And it’s those muscles that move the bones to faulty positions (most of the time).
Even corrective exercise can be detrimental or at best useless if we don’t consider the big picture. For example with your client by concentrating on the winging scapula and working the serratus anterior and the scapular retractors/depressors isn’t going to give very good results if the thoracic back is in flexion (I’m not saying that you did this). I bet that by working on the imbalance of the hips and getting extension to the thoracic spine will lead to better scapular positioning also. Weight training might not be the best way to achieve this since the demand level is too much for him to hold proper form etc.
I can’t give you specific exercises to use because I don’t know your client (e.g. does he have anterior or posterior pelvic tilt? lordosis/flat back?, valgus/varus knees?, pelvic/torso rotation?), but by starting him in a position that brings the hips level and starts to extend the thoracic back is a good choice (i.e. lying on the floor with legs on a chair, knees at 90 degrees, arms resting on the floor palms up). After 5-10 minutes of deep diaphragmic breathing to relax the torso muscles you could then start doing work first in this position (e.g. knee pillow squeezes, pullovers) and go from there. A good exercise for someone with thoracic flexion (if they can do it) is lying prone with the arms in the “hands up” position resting on 2-6 inch blocks (feet pigeon toed, glutes relaxed) for 5-6 minutes. Use exercises from different disciplines in a sequence that first takes out the compensation, then attacks the dysfunction to get best results.
If one has a significant hip disparity then trying to correct that in the standing position might not be the best alternative, but rather start in a less demanding position (e.g. lying, prone, hands and knees) and work there to get balance, then stand up. Positioning is usually more important than the movement itself, so always have them put their feet hip width apart and straight ahead etc. But of course there are always different ways to skin the cat.
When time is in short and especially when working with someone with a desk job it’s a good idea to give them a few exercises they can do every hour or so during the day. This really helps keep the muscles from going back to their old ways. E.g. sitting overhead extension or just sitting with an arch in the low back for a minute or two (with scapulae retracted) will help to keep those hip flexors and extensors of the spine active.
First straighten then strengthen.
Glad to see we took a more productive turn. Valid points.
Jumpman,
I belive in corrective exercise and feel the it can be very beneficial to the athlete however find it very challenging to implement within strength and conditioning in the college setting for several reasons…
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Very difficult to address ALL individual problems when working with 150+ athletes on a weekly basis. I feel that by stressing and coaching proper technique along with balanced program design many potential imbalances can be remedied.
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College athletes in team training setting have trouble staying modivated when they are not able to do the same or similiar training means as other team members.
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A solution could be to prescribe corrective exercises to be done on own time however, even the most modivated athletes will slack off on these exercises as they feel they are remidial or a waste of time even if they are explained the why’s to preventing potential injuries.
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We are only allowed so many training hours on a weekly basis due to NCAA regulations. If it’s a matter of an athlete putting ther feet at 11 and 1 (which is how I coach squats) and being able to squat correctly and comfortably rather than fitting them into this one size fits all mold then I feel comfortable with that. I have seen very few athletes who squat with their toes at 12:00 and have not seen those that don’t (the majority) have any higher injury rate.
Most times hip mobility (external rotation) doesn’t become a problem until at or below parallel. It really raises concerns for me when it happens at higher joint angles (half squat) because this is usually a sign of extreme tightness which defenitely needs to be addressed.
These reasons are why what may be applicaple for one coach may not always be applicable for another. Your thoughts…