Just throwing it out there - has anyone ever applied CF methodologies to Sprint cycling events like 200m TT, Kilo (1km), or BMX for eg?
Maybe Charlie himself is best qualfied to answer this (feel free anyone else though) - what do you think some of the major considerations, or modifications would be when implementing the CF training approach to such events?"
More specifcally, what is preventing or limiting successful implementation of such approaches to training given the inherent difference between sprint running and sprint cycling?
One thing to realise, running is very ecentric on your muscles, wheras cycling is Concentric on the muscles. therefore producing different recoverys and volume of sessions. No reason why the basics cannot be applyied??
I understand the eccentric v concentric difference between the two fully.
However - like many have stated in the past (which is another area of discussion for some), the intention to move fast under high loading while not actually doing so, vs moving faster under lighter loading can produce similar CNS fatigue results (generally speaking).
Given this, due to gearing of sprint bikes, initial acceleration (m/s/s or one cycle) is slower on bikes than it is running, is the intention to move as fast as possible while not actually doing so, make up for the lack of eccentric stress in regards to CNS fatigue, thus producing ‘similar’ fatigue-recovery curves which one wouldn’t expect?
what i was trying to portray, was, due to cycling being more concentic, you will need more volume, more distance to get the cns taxed. ie, say running 30m starts takes 4sec. you are at full pace by then, or close to it. on a sprint bike, you might, im not sure, take 20sec to reach top speed?? (let me know)
Hence time and distance have increased. When doing top speed efforts on running, a flying 20 or 30 is the norm, so 2-3sec of work. To get similiar results on a bike, you could increase that 5 fold, ie 10-15sec of top speed on a bike. The fact you done a cns day today, will still mean you need a more tempo/relaxing day the next, and it too will need more time in the saddle, as 30sec of bike tempo will do bugger all for you if you are fit…
Due to the gearing of this particular sprint cycling sport, mv is reached in not much more time than a sprint runner.
I understand the points you have made. In you opinion then, is it only a matter of manipulating volume of work, and rest while working, suggesting cycling is much less CNS taxing than running?
I too have wondered whether anyone has tried to make this connection.
The first issue i wouldve thought would be: which bike race corresponds to which sprint event?
eg, tour de france stages of 120km…would they be like 1500 metre races?
time trials varying from 20 to 50kms be like 200/400/800? pretty much flat out, depending on the distance, but u have to vary ur pace depending on hills etc…
i downloaded Chris Carmichael’s “Do the Tour at Home” training articles off bicycling.com. He did a training article for each stage of the Tour de France
Random thought: A top cyclist must be capable of long distance peloton rides of up to 200kms or something (correct me if im wrong), other days high speed sprints, time trials. Kind of like a runner being capable of 200m to 1500-5000 metre events, and kicking a$$ at all of them.
Here is Carmichael’s training pieces stage by stage, and a likely running equivalent.
Stage 1: fitness test - Repeat 3km bike rides, recording time, heart rate, power, cadence, weather conditions, course conditions, rate of perceived exertion.
Due to the small relative length of the test, im guessing this would equate to repeat 400 or 800. Im not sure if 3km ride would be aerobic or anaerobic.
Stage 2: Cornering at high speed. Bike specific. Prob equivalent to running a curve in the 200.
Stage 3: Speedy Sprinting: ride two hours total, with two sets of three high speed sprints in the last third of the ride… theory being to get used to going faster when ur already flying along
these sound pretty much like in and outs…
msg back if u want me to write the rest of the stages out…
Sprint cycling and Tour De France really are two different things. If you have ever seen sprint cycling, ie, in a velodome (spelling?) its only like what 200m is done in like 10sec or something?? The guys are huge also, if i was driving my car and saw one of them sprinting after me, i would be scared… Like a truck wanting to run you over! lol. But really, they are big blokes, they fly on the bike.
So really, if top speed takes just as long, speed endurance last just as long, ie, say 30sec of near top speed before lactic acid starts eating you!! Then really, i can see no reason why not to follow the Charlie program.
Still, being a concentric exercise, you will recover quicker and should be able to do a fair few more reps.
I would guess you’d take the basic adaptation table and peroidization and then apply the principals to the cycling program. the weights and jumps might be modified though
More like a marathon. 120km over typical terrain takes a bit less than 3 hours for those guys; cycling for a given length of time is easier than running, partly because you work a lot less when you’re in the pack and partly because you have much less impact stress. But not anything like that much easier.
Random thought: A top cyclist must be capable of long distance peloton rides of up to 200kms or something (correct me if im wrong), other days high speed sprints, time trials. Kind of like a runner being capable of 200m to 1500-5000 metre events, and kicking a$$ at all of them.
All top road cyclists have to be able to cope with the long distances, 200km is a long-ish stage but not really extreme, 230km is a very long stage in a stage race, a long one-day classic will push 300km (e.g. this year’s M-SR at 294km).
Not all riders need to be good sprinters, most aren’t. Not all riders need to be good up hills or on time trials. Cyclists specialise; guys like Armstrong are very good at long climbs and time trials and recovering fast. Armstrong is a mediocre sprinter - a lot of the guys in the peloton would beat him in a sprint, and all the recognised sprinters (Petacchi, Boonen et al) would beat him without even trying.
Track cyclists like the OP is talking about are different again. A good road sprinter is a guy who can ride 200+km at a fairly easy pace, maybe 100W average output, then about 4k at a harder pace (probably 300-400W) as the group speeds up into the finish, then <800m at absolute flat out pace out in front sprinting (lots of W). A good track sprinter does about 700m pretty slowly, playing tactical games, then about 200-300m flat out. They don’t have to develop much endurance capacity, so they can produce much higher power outputs than top road sprinters. Guys like Dajka or Bos would beat guys like Petacchi easily on the track, but they’d be unable to hang onto the peloton in a road race.
Here is Carmichael’s training pieces stage by stage, and a likely running equivalent.
Stage 1: fitness test - Repeat 3km bike rides, recording time, heart rate, power, cadence, weather conditions, course conditions, rate of perceived exertion.
Due to the small relative length of the test, im guessing this would equate to repeat 400 or 800. Im not sure if 3km ride would be aerobic or anaerobic.
3km takes a bit over 3 minutes; it’s mainly aerobic. Not much like the 400m, maybe 800m, probably closer to 1500m in terms of what you’re trying to train.
Stage 2: Cornering at high speed. Bike specific. Prob equivalent to running a curve in the 200.
It’s almost all technical, how to judge exactly how fast you can corner without your bike going out from under you in whatever weather conditions you’re in, how to make that speed greater by learning good technique cornering. Not much to do with trying to apply power while cornering.
I think you’re wasting your time trying to compare road cycling to short- and middle-distance running. A 20km time trial may be less than a tenth the distance of a typical single-day race, but that doesn’t mean it’s a sprint any more than a 3k run is a sprint because it’s less than a tenth the distance of a marathon.
