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281

Some more pertinent info:

This is from Supertraining… Siff states that there are two main “determinants of strength”; structural factors and functional factors. When he says strength I think that encompasses all types of strength (explosive, starting, maximum, etc.) so basically force production not just maximum isometric tension.

Structural Factors
-The cross-sectional are of the muscle
-The density of the muscle fibres per unit cross-sectional area
-The efficiency of mechanical leverage across the joint

Functional Factors
-The number of muscle fibres contracting simultaneously
-The rate of contraction of muscle fibres
-The efficiency of synchronisation of firing of the muscle
-The conduction velocity in the nerve fibres
-The proportion of large diameter muscle fibres active
-The efficiency of cooperation between different types of muscle fibre
-The efficiency of various stretch reflexes in controlling muscle tension
-The excitation threshold of the nerve fibres supplying the muscles
-The initial length of the muscles before contraction

I think its interesting that pennation angle was not mentioned amongst the structural factors. I am under the impression that the force exerted on the tendon by the muscle is proportional to the cosine of the pennation angle. This means that a change in the muscle fiber’s angle can cause a significant difference in force production. Am I wrong here?

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I don’t know. I refuse to defend Bosch as I think he is full of shit half the time. I was just throwing it out there. Every time I (or any of my athletes) try to analyze lower level physiology/anatomy my performances plummet :slight_smile:

The internet says:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/415057_4
Type I fibers have a low power output but high isometric force-sustaining capacity because of low ATPase-specific activity (slow myosin or slow twitch fibers), low content of glycolytic enzymes, and a high density of mitochondria.

Again this whole point was Bosch’s idea and may pertain to long sprinters or middle distance guys more than short sprinters. I have no allegiance to any theories.

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Haha… paralysis by analysis, I hear you on that. I’ve finally learned to base my training off of what has given me success in the past and learn from the best coaches instead of switching things up everytime I read something new about fiber type, rest periods, or whatever else it may be.

The internet says:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/415057_4
Type I fibers have a low power output but high isometric force-sustaining capacity because of low ATPase-specific activity (slow myosin or slow twitch fibers), low content of glycolytic enzymes, and a high density of mitochondria.

Again this whole point was Bosch’s idea and may pertain to long sprinters or middle distance guys more than short sprinters. I have no allegiance to any theories.

I see, not trying to pin this on you or anything. Just kinda wondering out load about the logic behind the statement and about what really happens… I dont know either :)!

284

Geezus so much discussion while Im away, I should go away more often, I’ll read over it Friday when i get back.

285

Bench - 3x5, 1x3+1+1 @ 255

Incline Bench - 3x10 @ 145 pw/
Upright Row - 3x10 @ 35 pw/
Situps - 3x33

Flies 3x15 incline, flat, decline pw/
Shrugs - 3x6 @ 205 pw/
Leg Raises - 3x25

Notes - havent had a chance to thoroughly read the stuff previously posted, going to a pga champions tour in town tomorrow so cant say i’ll get to it tomorrow, but definately by sunday, also hopefully get a chance to run tomorrow.

286

Track

3x40m w/weights

6.03, 5.28, 5.53

2x3x40

5.19, 5.12, 5.19
5.19, 5.22, 5.06

Weightroom

Squat - 4x5 @ 220

Single Leg Extension - 3x12 @ 70 pw/
Leg Curl - 3x12 @ 70

Stabilizer Squat - 2x10 @ bw

Stabilizer Lunge - 2x10 @ bw

Side Bend - 3x30 @ 25lb

Abs - 250reps

Notes - The first weighted 40 was slow, so then I picked it up on the 2nd which was too fast, and backed off for the 3rd one. Still running about .1 or so faster when I’m tense, hopefully I can get that to disappear soon. Other than that it was nice out probably upper 80’s and a swirling light wind.

Going to my first and maybe only meet of the summer in two weeks, hopefully run something respectable nothing amazing but we will see its been a year since my last 100m and I only had that one junk indoor meet in between so who knows. Hopefully get in a decent amount of indoor meets, but we will see.

287

Mreoyn09,

I pretty agree with what your saying. I dont really understand fiber conversion that well or the arguments for either side in terms of benefit to sprinting so I dont really want to comment on that, what you and Mortac have said is basically what I understand and that is there is a lot of confusion.

In terms of type of hypertrophy, I dont think it really makes a difference in most parts of the body, except for the prime movers. And I guess depending on how you phrase that like you said the major areas of concern would be at least the glutes, hamstrings, and I always add the shoulders as well.

I think much of the desired functional hypertrophy can be obtained through the use of sprint work. If your body can recover properly and you give it enough functional stimulous through a correct sprinting workout then the body should properly adapt in those areas during recovery.

But I also think there is a place where the hypertrophy type does not matter and can still be beneficial. Particularly in the arms, where the extra mass is not particularly functional but arm swing may be optimized by varying the level of mass depending on the development of the athletes shoulders. Also to varying extents in the quads and hamstrings it would be intestings to see what level of actual max strength work needs to be done. I dont realy know how to express it at this point, I need to head out in a couple minutes so I will just bullet a few things in summary and some other things a good bit will just be shooting from the hip so dont hold me to it.

  • functional hypertrophy for sprints can be developed almost or perhaps exclusively through sprints and sprint related movements - i.e. incline runnings, bounding, quick legs, weighted runs

  • the above is more so true for the lower body where force amount and length cannot easily be simulated through strength training, functional upper body development may still be somewhat developed through strength training especially in the shoulder area

  • hypertrophy training rather than strength training can be beneficial due to the decreased energy demands in terms of long term fatigue if used properly

  • hypertrophy training should still be closely monitored for excessive cns demands, and in particular increased cns demands from added weight on the track, significant weight gain from hypertrophy training should rarely be the intended goal, rather proper placement and levels of musculature should be the outcome

  • once again as you stated the demands of max strength work compared to that of sprinting i find to be of too low resemblence to be beneficial to a large extent given the amount of resources in time and energy needed by most sprint training programs to obtain their strength training goals

Sorry if this is at all rambling or doesnt make sense I dont have time to read back over it.

288

3x3 of random order between ankling - 20m and bounding 40m

Also

1x100m 10m @ 97%, 90m @ low effort - 14.56
1x100m 30m @ 97%, 70m @ low effort - 14.22
1x100m 45m @ 97%, 55m @ low effort - 13.22

Just wanted to see what kind of shape I am in and make sure I can run something respectable for me next week.

Deadlift - 4x5@ 250

SL Deadlift - 3x10 @ 160 pw/
Situps - 3x50

Plus additional abs.

289

So… I’m in one of those states where everything seems conflicting and I don’t know what to think in terms of this whole hypertrophy thing. I was going to mention some of the discussion in the BB training is superior to Max Strength thread and then it exploded last night and I saw that you posted a couple times in there. Funny that was brought back to life recently because I found it a few weeks ago and it helped to peak my interest in this topic and restart up discussion with you. I also started in on the Barry Ross thread last night which I think I skimmed over before… its pretty monstrous and I only made it 6 or 7 pages in but there is some interesting info on the topic of hypertrophy in sprint training.

Anyway, in response to your post; I definitely agree with that hypertrophy training will cause less overall fatigue and allow you to put more into training on the track and also that huge lbs gains are not desired but rather optimal levels of hypertrophy in the right places. Interesting that you brought up weight in the arms, thats something that I was just starting to ponder. I guess more muscle mass in the arms could help to “better” counterbalance the movement of the lower limbs but at what point is this optimized? Would more massive arms slow your ability to “pump” them during the sprint stride and slow you down (not likely considering the upper body size of a lot of elite sprinters)?

I’m not totally sure what you are saying about shoulder development. Are you saying that you think weightroom strength helps develop the shoulder area to better pump the arms in a sprint stride? My thoughts would be that development of the posterior shoulder muscles and upper back are of the most important there because I think there is more of a pulling downward or back and the foreswing is more of a “rebound” of the backward motion.

I don’t know that I agree that “functional hypertrophy” of the glutes, hams, etc. can come almost exclusively from sprints, hills, bounds, etc. I think this maybe the case for some people who are naturally more heavily muscled. Most others would likely benefit from some weightroom developed hypertrophy of the prime movers along with the specific movements. However, I do agree with you that the type of hypertrophy developed is important for the prime movers.

I am starting to think that one should strive for hypertrophy of the glutes, hams, erectors, rhomboids, lats, and rear delts to an optimal level (what is the optimal level?!?!) and in sacromere hypertrophy as opposed to sacroplasmic hypertrophy in the weightroom. This would provide those muscles that contribute most to the force delivered in a sprint stride the necessary structure and the track specific work would give it the “function”. One would strive for weightroom strength gains in the pecs, anterior delts, triceps, etc. to develop a respectable bench press which would help maintain CNS tone going into competitions without taxing specific MUs. This would cut down on the fatigue induced by weights since very heavy squats and such would not be included and allow for more output on the track which provides more specific benefits. However, strength doesn help at the beginning of the race (0-10m or so) and the shorter the race, the more significant that becomes. Thoughts?

290

By the way, what are your PRs and what did you run in your indoor meet this year? I looked back in your log for it but I couldn’t find it.

291

O sorry they are scattered most is in my first post here. Basically sucked at sprints til 05 season, pr before that was 12.17fat, dropped to 11.30 fat in 1yr doing quick leg drills and about 2,3x3x30 workouts for most of the year along with weighted box jumps.

In 06 couldnt train as much because I had an internsihp during the season so numbers were flat, long jump went up due to weighted leg raises tho mort might say different.

In 07 well gradschool, didnt train or run. Ran 6.90 in 55 and 20’1 in long jump without any weight train or sprinting for about 4-5 months.

Strength

Bench - 310 - summer 06
Deadlift - 385 winter 05
Power Clean - 240 winter 05
Squat parallel - 350 unsure has stayed about the same forever
Vertical Jump - 38 02, 35.9 in 05 penn relays
Broad Jump - 10’3 05 penn relays

Track

55m - 6.67 2005, 2006 Indoor championship prelims, cramped in both finals including a 8.** in 06

100m - 11.29 2006, I forget what meet, ran 11.30 in 05

200 - 23.28 I believe this was 06 but not sure usually only ran it like twice a year

400 - 52.3 2004 one of only I think 3 open 400’s I ran. I believe my fastest relay leg was high 50.

800 - 2:07.3h 2000 back when I was a sophmore highschool distance runner, ran a 2:04.7 split in 2002

LJ - 22’1 - 06 at Bucknell, 21’11 06 summer at PSU

TJ - 42’1 - 06 conference, jumped twice a season once to make confernce, once at conference

292

Thanks for the recap. What are the quick leg drills you’ve mentioned?

293

Been thinking about this a little bit more and I’m already questioning myself :eek:. My question is what does heavy lowerbody lifting give that you would then be missing out on with the above philosophy? Rate coding, MU recruitment, GTO disinhibition, increase in testosterone levels, etc… many of the “functional” factors that I listed earlier from Supertraining. I think a lot of those same things come from the track work but I’m not sure that weights wouldn’t better address some of those factors. Kelly B touched on rate coding a little bit and said that there is a significant time under tension component to increases in rate coding which is hard to accomplish through sprints and jumps. I don’t have the answers…

294

I dont know, its hard, its all hard because its so hard to decypher what articles have scientific backing and what ones dont, you read an article, you think its good, then you look down at the references and its just a bunch of hacks or lifters or coaches you know have a bias, then you look at their stuff and its most opinions or references to other people with similiar opinions and you can hardly ever find where the facts came from or find quality studes attacted to the bullshyt data.

So I usualy try to go right to studies when I look up data from educational databases and there are only so many trained sprinters that its hard to find good information.

295

Bench - 4x5 @ 255

Close Grip Incline Press - 3x10 @ 115
Dumbell Row - 3x10 @ 80

Behind Neck Press - 3x4 @ 115

Concentration Curl - 3x10 @ 35

Abs

Notes - happy to get the bench after my last performance was a little disappointing.

296

Lifted Wednesday

Squat - 4x5 @ 220

Leg Extension - 3x10@150
Glute Ham Raise - 3x10 bw

Stabiliser Squat - 3x10 bw

Stabiliser Lunge - 3x10 bw

Side Bends - 3x30lb

Sprinting

3x40 w/1lb weight

2x3x40

3xmedium approach appx 18 1/2ft

Notes - forgot my stop watch so couldnt time, and just wanted to get in a few jumps before next week. Hopefully everything goes alright. Weather was beautiful so hopefully ran some good times.

297

Bench - 2x4, 1x3+1 @ 265

Track

5.94, xxx, 5.44

2x3x40m

5.22, 5.22, 5.22
5.09, 5.03*, 5.04

6xshort-mid approach triple jumps

2xshort approach long jumps

*Questionable timing, probably about .1 slower, but still pr’d on the last one

Incline Press - 3x10 @ 150 pw/
Incline Fly - 3x10 @ 25

Bent Row - 3x6 @ 165
Shrugs - 3x8 @ 165

Squats - 2x60 @ bw

Single Leg Calve Raises - 2x35 @ bw

Notes - the slight pr in the 40m was a nice thing to see going into the week of a meet, though still not too sure how fast I will actually run, probably 11.5-11.6ish. Also the jumps werent too promising the deepest tj was probably 37-38 from a decent distance approach and the longs were like 17 from a short approach. Besides that happy about actually competing and getting some times down before the weather starts to turn.

298

Squat - 3x4 @ 235

Lunges - 3x10 @ 35 dumbell

Step Ups - 3x10 @ 35 dumbell

Bicep Curl - 2x10, 1x6 @ 35

Tricep Extension - 3x8 @ 35 pw/
Concentration Curl - 3x4 @ 35

Stabiliser Squat - 2x15 @ bw

Stabiliser Lunge - 2x15 @ bw

Side Bends - 3x35 @ 25

Notes - nothing amazing some good sleep for once, besides that going as planned.

299

How long is your approach in the long jump for competition?

300

It used to be 89’, I havent measure one this year, I will probably just do some run throughs at that though and see how it goes.

However, thats very short for a long jump, most jumpers are atleast 10-20’ further.