The key is to distinguish between an adaptation that is desirable and appropriate for one level of biological maturity yet undesirable and misappropriate for another.
See Number 2’s response in reference to the latter.
I would like to read more about undesirable ventricular adaptations from exercise in children. Any sources on this would be gratefully received as my own searches have yielded nothing specifically relevant.
Just to re-iterate – I have very little specific knowledge regarding cardiac physiology. I’m simply relaying my personal experiences and some anecdotal information in speaking with a few people in the know.
Might be a good idea to do a literature search on PubMed to get a good idea of what the research is showing.
Very interesting and important topic though.
James - does your university do any screening on hypertrophic cardiomyopathy cases? If so, how is it done - through ECG analysis? I recently watched the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary on Loyola Marymount, Hank Gathers and Paul Westhead. Still, after all these years, a very sad story.
Don’t quote me on this; however, this is how I think the process goes:
I can’t recall if the general pre-screening/physicals include that assessment; however, diagnostic tests such as this are performed on an individual basis when information is passed on from the players trainers or physician back home or if a player is symptomatic of some type of cardiac issue here.
I believe MRI and ECG are the ones.
We are fortunate in that our sports medicine facility is about 300yds down the block from our training facility.
Despite what people may think it is incredibly difficult to diagnose or predict sudden a case of ‘sudden cardiac death’ from an ECG.
Even if an ‘abnormality’ is detected there is no way to be certain of or to make a prediction.
There are some cases and abnormalities that are clear cut - but it’s not as exact a science as is often portrayed.
a link to the subject from the Mayo clinic:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/hypertrophic-cardiomyopathy/diagnosis.html
After reading what others have inputed about this, I wanted to be more aware…
Every single source I found said that Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy is a genetic mutation, that is often traceable to other members of the Family…
From what I read, there is nothing that would indicate any particular kind of excercise would cause this, in fact the only thing I could find that they know, is that it’s a genetic mutation?
I would be more apt to say, that there were people that had this condition, that did particular excercises, and they were mistakenly linked, instead of the genetic mutation?
Anyways, after reading I am releaved and have no fears.
Rick
Well said,
30 years ago having a vascectomy was also thought to have caused hardening of the arteries (have not the time to spellcheck). I think the arterie they are thinking with is about a foot from the heart
I have been looking in to this also. I couldn’t find anything (via pubmed or google scholar) that suggested exercise induced ventricular hypertrophy in children may have adverse consequences.
James, do you have any sources?
This is a great thread. As a parent coach i had to pull my 2 younger daughters out of track all together (ages 9 and 12) I let my older one train (13yo) 1-2 /week and the longest distance we ran was an easy 400m jog and I mean I could walk next to her… All we did was shot put throws/medball throw and hurdle drils and starts… Lo and be hold she PRs almost 16ft almost 5 ft in the HJ. Her hurdles are a work in progress but for the 100m hurdles she did 17 low fat… And we did a SE work out she was able to do 13.5 to 14 for 4x100m with a walk back rest…
To my surprise the 2 younger ones had HUGE PRs with no training at all maybe a few times a month of med ball and very short sprints playing bball…
My point echo’s what everyone else is saying you CAN get results training with low volume low density training. STAY AWAY from coaches who do long sprints in practice and want them to do XC comps and are all crazy about JO’s focus on the long term… I took my kid to a camp where Roger Kindom and Andre Phillips were the coaches and after a long talk with them and they asked me what I did with my kid, they said I wish more parents did that…(low volume and form work…) They were not impressed with speed they were impressed that she had the basics down and she understands what to do when they asked her to change her technique… They said it made their job much easier… Focus on the basics and short stuff and the rest will come when they are older…
i think its pretty well known in the literature, the ventricular hypertrophy limits their capacity later in life
to give one example (although not from a scientific journal)
“Premature work loads requiring considerable anaerobic energy, applied to athletes who are not adequately prepared for this type of work, cause an excessive load on the cardiac function and a thickening of the artery walls, which delay the development of peripheral circulation and hinder cardiac activity itself. These factors may, in turn, cause a myocardial dystrophy. There is also a reduction of the oxidative capacity of the skeletal muscles, because mitochondrion integrity is disturbed and, therefore, speed at the anaerobic threshold level decreases.”
Yuri V. Verkoshansky
I’m no expert of course, and from what I have read, this is getting confusing, as I think we are talking about different things.
I believe what your posting is what was being referred to earlier in the posts, which has my interest.
But, I believe " Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy" is an entirely different disease, and is a genetic condition?
And then yet third example, that is “beneficial” thickening of the heart walls, and reversible in the future with less workout…?
Rick
Any clarification of the above?
Rick
Not sure about hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. So in regards to the thickening of the heart walls and exercise, it is permanent and not reversible even if exercise stops.
“So in regards to the thickening of the heart walls and exercise, it is permanent and not reversible even if exercise stops”
Not from what I have read:
“Athletic Heart Syndrome”:
http://www.ahealthyme.com/sites/cdma/cat_illsandcond.gif
" If you really want a “normal” heart again, all you have to do is stop exercising. Soon, your heart, along with the rest of your body, will sag back into its former shape."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletic_heart_syndrome
“80% of people affected by this syndrome show a decrease in such structural changes and in bradycardia with detraining”
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec01/ch006/ch006b.html
“When an athlete stops training, the athletic heart syndrome slowly disappears—that is, heart size and heart rate tend to return gradually to those of the nonathlete”
After re-reading the article by Yuri V. Verkoshansky, it seems he is talking more about thickening of arteries and constriction and a weakening of the heart…I don’t see anything about thickening of the heart walls and ventricals…and I did LOTS of searchs and this is the only reference of this type of condition.
In all my searches, I could not find any other reference to this condition, so I’m not sure about it’s validity…anyone have other medical references, and that more clearly define it as a medical condition?
“In cyclic sports disciplines, combat sports and games, a premature intensification
of high velocity work causes asthenic reactions — unproductive reactions that are
meant to protect the organism from abrupt changes of the acid-base balance.
Premature work loads requiring considerable anaerobic energy, applied to athletes
who are not adequately prepared for this type of work, cause an excessive load on
the cardiac function and a thickening of the artery walls, which delay the
development of peripheral circulation and hinder cardiac activity itself. These
factors may, in turn, cause a myocardial dystrophy.”
So, it does appear that there are at least, 2 seperate conditions:
1.) Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy: Which is bad, and can cause sudden death syndrome, believed to be genetic.
2.) Athletic Heart Syndrome: Not bad, is good for athletics, and will reduce to normal when athletics subside.
I believe this to be a very important subject, and hopefully, those “in the know” can chime in?
Rick
Just an update to my post above…
My daughter had her bi-annual sports physical today. I mentioned to the doctor that She was active in track, both School and USATF/AAU. I was happily impressed with her wanting to do a ECG to check for …Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy!
I guess it’s a normal thing they check for when kids get into sports for 9th Grade, and even though my daughter is only going into 8th Grade, she considered my daughter needing it early because of her involvement early into sports…
I asked for a copy and was told everything was great. Don’t know what the graph means, but i did get a copy.
This is good stuff to know…I’m learning a lot from this site!
Rick
Found an interesting article that supports Speedster12’s posted article by Yuri V. Verkoshansky.
http://www.pediatrics.org/cgi/content/full/123/4/1217
Interesting, read quote here:
“increased risk created by race (black), gender
(male) and biological development, and/or length of
training… extreme rarity…(1 in 400,000)”
Well, again, I’m even more releived after reading this article, as it is pretty much non-existant in females.
Rick
Anyone have comments?
Perhaps the aerobic training effect on the heart may not be permanent, but the anaerobic effects may be…?
That would be important information to know if true.
I have searched and searched for a difference between aerobic and anaerobic in these articles, but I have not found one that does not group both together when making the statement of the heart returning to normal.
Rick