relation/transfer of training tests and 40 yard dash

General Fitness
14

With respect to the development of world class sprint speed we know that the only means that absolutely must be present is the sprint work itself. Everything else severs a simulative and supportive role and can be accomplished in many ways depending on the peculiarities of the athletes, training environment, trainedness and so forth. Looking at preparing the big and small skill football players in American football the speed needed to compete are much less whereas many of the athletes also need a great deal more muscle mass in order to withstand the many high impact collisions. Charlie has often stated that most of the sprint work should be kept under 30 meters for the vast majority of football players. Does this mean that flying sprints EFE etc should not be used for neural patterning? It seems like long work under the alactic threshold could be effective for many of the players for the purposes of both height to CNS exposure and breath as well as rate of relaxation amongst other things.

Looking at the 40 yard dash and the transfer that the vertical and broad jump have they seem like training means that might be relevant for athletes at the lower levels of development but the dynamics are so much different how much do they really mean? For instance as Charlie always states testing such as shot throw squat bench multi response jump are only relevant if they are performed regularly in the training likewise these results may be skewed based on how much the athletes work on single response jumps. It seems like if these numbers are not rising, but the athlete is “flying right” then it really does not matter.

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bump for info

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There vertical exercises, sprinting is horizontal.

Following are the best 40 times and results in other events recorded by NFLDraftScout.com since 1999.

Comparisons???..

40-Yard Dash Times

4.24 - Rondel Melendez, (WR), Eastern Kentucky - 1999
4.28 - Jerome Mathis, (WR), Hampton - 2005
4.28 - *Champ Bailey, (CB), Georgia - 1999
4.29 - Stanford Routt, (CB), Houston - 2005
4.29 - Jay Hinton, (RB), Morgan State - 1999
4.29 - *Fabian Washington, (CB), Nebraska - 2005
4.30 - Yamon Figurs (WR), Kansas State - 2007
4.30 - Darrent Williams, (CB), Oklahoma State - 2005
4.31 - *Johnathan Joseph, (CB), South Carolina - 2006
4.31 - Aaron Lockett, (WR), Kansas State - 2002
4.31 - Santana Moss, (WR), Miami - 2001
4.32 - *Troy Williamson, (WR), South Carolina - 2005
4.32 - *Chad Jackson, (WR), Florida - 2006
4.32 - Jason Hill (WR), Washington State - 2007
4.32 - Tim Jennings, (CB), Georgia - 2006
4.32 - Chris McKenzie, (CB), Arizona State - 2005
4.32 - Tim Carter, (WR), Auburn - 2002
4.32 - Kevin Garrett, (CB), Southern Methodist - 2003
4.32 - Antwan Harris, (CB), Virginia - 2000
4.33 - Carlos Francis, (WR), Texas Tech - 2004
4.33 - Karsten Bailey, (WR), Auburn - 1999
4.33 - Chris Chambers, (WR), Wisconsin - 2001
4.34 - *Ahmad Carroll, (CB), Arkansas - 2004
4.34 - Domonique Foxworth, (CB), Maryland - 2005
4.34 - Tyrone Calico, (WR), Middle Tennessee State - 2003

Highest Vertical Jump

46 - Gerald Sensabaugh, (FS), North Carolina - 2005
45 1/2 - Derek Wake, (OLB), Penn State - 2005
45 - Chris McKenzie, (CB), Arizona State - 2005
45 - Chris Chambers, (WR), Wisconsin - 2001
43 1/2 - Dustin Fox, (FS), Ohio State - 2005
43 1/2 - Jay Hinton, (RB), Morgan State - 1999
43 1/2 - Kevin Kasper, (WR), Iowa - 2001
43 1/2 - Jerry Azumah, (RB), New Hampshire - 1999
43 - Scott Starks, (CB), Wisconsin - 2005
43 - Cedric James, (WR), TCU - 2001
42 1/2 - Jonathan Carter, (WR), Troy - 2001
42 1/2 - Nate Burleson, (WR), Nevada - 2003
42 1/2 - Brock Williams, (CB), Notre Dame - 2001
42 - Kerry Rhodes, (FS), Louisville - 2005
42 - Ellis Hobbs, (CB), Iowa State - 2005
42 - *William Green, (RB), Boston College - 2002
42 - *Vernon Davis, (TE), Maryland - 2006
42 - Mark Anderson, (DE), Alabama - 2006
42 - Boss Bailey, (OLB), Georgia - 2003
42 - Scott Fujita, (OLB), California - 2002
42 - Raonall Smith, (OLB), Washington State - 2002
42 - Rashad Holman, (CB), Louisville - 2001
42 - Santana Moss, (WR), Miami - 2001
42 - Pierson Prioleau, (FS), Virginia Tech - 1999
41 1/2 - Reuben Houston, (CB), Georgia Tech - 2006

Fastest 10-Yard Times

1.43 - Aundrae Allison (WR), East Carolina - 2007
1.43 - Eric Weddle (SS), Utah - 2007
1.43 - Marcus McCauley (CB), Fresno State - 2007
1.45 - Leon Hall (CB), Michigan - 2007
1.46 - Colin Branch, (FS), Stanford - 2003
1.46 - Kenny Scott (CB), Georgia Tech - 2007
1.46 - Josh Wilson (CB), Maryland - 2007
1.46 - Brandon McDonald (CB), Memphis - 2007
1.46 - *Reggie Nelson (FS), Florida - 2007
1.46 - Lorenzo Booker (RB), Florida State - 2007
1.46 - *Fabian Washington, (CB), Nebraska - 2005
1.46 - Tarell Brown (CB), Texas - 2007
1.46 - Laurent Robinson (WR), Illinois State - 2007
1.46 - Steve Smith (WR), Southern Cal - 2007
1.46 - Anthony Arline (CB), Baylor - 2007
1.47 - *Sidney Rice (WR), South Carolina - 2007
1.47 - LaRon Landry (FS), LSU - 2007
1.47 - Jay Hinton, (RB), Morgan State - 1999
1.47 - Rondel Melendez, (WR), Eastern Kentucky - 1999
1.47 - Justin Fargas, (RB), Southern Cal - 2003
1.47 - Yamon Figurs (WR), Kansas State - 2007
1.47 - DeShawn Wynn (RB), Florida - 2007
1.48 - Tim Jennings, (CB), Georgia - 2006
1.48 - Sinorice Moss, (WR), Miami - 2006
1.48 - Domonique Foxworth, (CB), Maryland - 2005
1.48 - Antwan Harris, (CB), Virginia - 2000
1.48 - *Champ Bailey, (CB), Georgia - 1999

225-Pound Bench Reps

51 - Justin Ernest, (DT), Eastern Kentucky - 1999
45 - Mike Kudla, (DE), Ohio State - 2006
45 - Leif Larsen, (DT), Texas-El Paso - 2000
44 - Brodrick Bunkley, (DT), Florida State - 2006
43 - Scott Young, (OG), BYU - 2005
42 - Tank Tyler (DT), North Carolina State - 2007
42 - Isaac Sopoaga, (DT), Hawaii - 2004
41 - Terna Nande, (OLB), Miami (OHIO) - 2006
41 - *Igor Olshansky, (DT), Oregon - 2004
40 - Zach Piller, (OT), Florida - 1999
40 - Justin Blalock (OG), Texas - 2007
40 - Manny Ramirez (OG), Texas Tech - 2007
38 - Tony Pashos, (OT), Illinois - 2003
38 - Craig Page, ©, Georgia Tech - 1999
38 - Jeff Smith, ©, Wyoming - 1999
37 - *Wayne Hunter, (OT), Hawaii - 2003
37 - *Haloti Ngata, (DT), Oregon - 2006
37 - Roberto Garza, ©, Texas AM-Kingsville - 2001
37 - Victor Leyva, (OG), Arizona State - 2001
37 - Moran Norris, (FB), Kansas - 2001
36 - Gabe Watson, (DT), Michigan - 2006
36 - *Vince Wilfork, (DT), Miami - 2004
36 - Liam Ezekiel, (ILB), Northeastern - 2005
36 - Scott Peters, ©, Arizona State - 2002
36 - Makoa Freitas, (OG), Arizona - 2003

Fastest Shuttle Times

3.73 - Kevin Kasper, (WR), Iowa - 2001
3.76 - Deion Branch, (WR), Louisville - 2002
3.78 - Dunta Robinson, (CB), South Carolina - 2004
3.79 - *Champ Bailey, (CB), Georgia - 1999
3.82 - Dante’ Hall, (RB), Texas A&M - 2000
3.83 - Jason Allen, (FS), Tennessee - 2006
3.83 - Kevin Bentley, (OLB), NorthWestern - 2002
3.83 - Terence Newman, (CB), Kansas State - 2003
3.84 - Justin Beriault, (FS), Ball State - 2005
3.84 - Carlos Rogers, (CB), Auburn - 2005
3.84 - Troy Walters, (WR), Stanford - 2000
3.85 - Rashad Holman, (CB), Louisville - 2001
3.86 - Creig Spann, (WR), Arizona State - 1999
3.86 - Matt Graham, (SS), Indiana State - 1999
3.86 - Kevin Brooks, (CB), South Carolina - 1999
3.86 - Jay Hinton, (RB), Morgan State - 1999
3.86 - Kevin Johnson, (WR), Syracuse - 1999
3.86 - Jason Hebert, (FS), Rice - 2002
3.86 - Jerry Azumah, (RB), New Hampshire - 1999
3.86 - Chris Watson, (CB), Eastern Illinois - 1999
3.87 - Randy Fasani, (QB), Stanford - 2002
3.87 - Coy Wire, (SS), Stanford - 2002
3.88 - Ryan Tolhurst, (WR), Richmond - 2002
3.88 - Kevin Curtis, (FS), Texas Tech - 2002
3.88 - Kendrick Starling, (WR), San Jose State - 2004

Quickest 3 Cone Drill Times

6.45 - Sedrick Curry, (CB), Texas A&M - 2000
6.48 - Rogers Beckett, (FS), Marshall - 2000
6.49 - Carlos Rogers, (CB), Auburn - 2005
6.50 - Leon Hall (CB), Michigan - 2007
6.51 - Jon McGraw, (SS), Kansas State - 2002
6.54 - *Anthony Gonzalez (WR), Ohio State - 2007
6.56 - Ben Taylor, (ILB), Virginia Tech - 2002
6.56 - Kevin Kasper, (WR), Iowa - 2001
6.60 - Trent Gamble, (FS), Wyoming - 2000
6.60 - Marcus Griffin (SS), Texas - 2007
6.61 - Courtney Roby, (WR), Indiana - 2005
6.61 - Troy Walters, (WR), Stanford - 2000
6.61 - Marcus McCauley (CB), Fresno State - 2007
6.62 - Coy Wire, (SS), Stanford - 2002
6.62 - Dante’ Hall, (RB), Texas A&M - 2000
6.62 - Johnnie Lee Higgins (WR), Texas-El Paso - 2007
6.63 - Ketric Sanford, (RB), Houston - 2000
6.63 - Matt Farmer, (WR), Air Force - 2000
6.63 - *Ben Kelly, (CB), Colorado - 2000
6.64 - Keith Brown, (RB), UCLA - 2000
6.64 - Stanford Routt, (CB), Houston - 2005
6.64 - Tye Hill, (CB), Clemson - 2006
6.64 - Demarcus Faggins, (CB), Kansas State - 2002
6.65 - Ryan Tolhurst, (WR), Richmond - 2002
6.65 - Omare Lowe, (CB), Washington - 2002
6.65 - Herb Haygood, (WR), Michigan State - 2002

17

Please ignore my ignorance but what are superman and Planche pushups?

18

Still holds true?

19

One thing I might be able to add re:40y start tech. and this was from Charlie in person.

He said he saw no advantage in holding the back hand/arm up extremely high as you see with some athletes.

He recommended holding the arm up about hip high or possibly a little lower but not so high to the point where it is well above the back hip.

I think he said something about that (hand/arm held very high) being too long of an action to initiate a start and that the lead arm did not need to cover that much distance to get one started.

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http://artofmanliness.com/2009/07/21/push-ups-exercises/

21

After looking at the recent combine performances I figured I would compare the top 40 yard dash times and vertical jumps to see how many of the same athletes made the top performances for both.

Key points

-The fastest 3 athletes in the 40 did not even make the list in the 15 top vertical jumps at the combine.

-the Top 7 vertical jumps were performed by athletes who did not make the top 15 in the 40 yard dash.

-In consideration of the top 15 perofrmances in each category only 3 were on both lists.

which means there were 27 unique athletes making top performancec

22

“There vertical exercises, sprinting is horizontal.”

The research suggests that sprinting is vertical. Elite sprinters have significant greater capacity to produce vertical force than non-elites.

23

Number 2 are you quoting something from this thread? or just in general?

I completely agree that forces are vertical in sprinting. I was just trying to get the point across that too many people get to wrapped up in particular tests when ultimately they need to focus on whats most important.

One particular very very well known strength coach told me that he he knows his athletes will run a faster 40 when his box jump goes up. While it may be the case, I disagree and it is not a complete direct relationship. There needs to be much more emphasis placed on the mechanical and technical components of sprinting instead of just “get strong and jump higher and pray that you go out and run faster because we’ve increased your force production” which are common thoughts among many combine coaches.

In contrast however, there are also many factors to consider, and they are certainly related, and to not perform jumps, and bounds, especially of those that are vertical in nature etc would be very limiting to the athlete.

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Sorry - that was a quote from a previous post above. Not yours, I believe.

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I don’t understand.

-The fastest 3 athletes in the 40 did not even make the list in the 15 top vertical jumps at the combine. -The Top 7 vertical jumps were performed by athletes who did not make the top 15 in the 40 yard dash.

:confused:

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What dont you understand? is your question about the vertical forces or about the combine

27

i know at least personally, from weightlifting and bringing my parallel squat from under 185 to repping 315 my sprint time over the 55 didnt even improve a tenth, but my vertical shot up like half a foot at least, and my broad jump maybe up to a foot

my problem was that the only part similar to the jumps during something like a 40 is like the first couple steps, then the contact times are so low that i think the rest of the race is less affected even if your vertical gets huge

28

Some who have here for more than a while might remember a guy who was here for a period something like 2-3 years ago. The guy put up some ridiculous weight room numbers, including something like a 700lb box squat. I think he had a 46 inch vertical and could just about hit his head on a basketball rim…

Couldn’t sprint worth shit, and I think he left frustrated.

You also don’t see winners of the NBA slam dunk contest competing in IAAF high jump.

My sense is that the vertical force that results in hip height while traveling horizontally at high speed is a different skill from the vertical force that results in a single explosive move skyward.

29

along similar lines, im 6’5, quite thin, have a 30" vertical jump and I can’t dunk a basketball

if you don’t practice the actual movement, nothing correlates. period.

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With a 30" standing vertical at 6’5, you should be able to dunk two handed without an approach.

What happens when you try?

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It’s with regards to vertical forces.

If the forces are predominately vertical in sprinting, then why is it the guys with great verts can’t hang with the 40 guys & vice versa?. If the vert guys produce greater vertical forces?, they should excel in the 40/sprints, since “forces are vertical in sprinting”?.

It’s not like there choosing one over the other. I’m sure both sets of athletes (good verters/sprinters) would be trying/training to increase both disciplines, particularly at the combine.

I find the whole thing quite strange as guys with great verts have the same qualities needed to be a good sprinter (elasticity, great hip power, great achilles tendon/calf/ankle strength etc). Elastic strength is certainly one of the defining qualities of the fastest 100m sprinters. Is the distance just too short for the vert guys to show there true qualities (40m onwards)?.

Could training for a great vert in some way have a negative effect on the 40?/sprinting?. Again, the guys with great verts are also putting in max effort 40’s throughout the year, they show great elasticity, hip power, great achilles tendon/calf/ankle strength etc) but just aren’t able to hang in the 40.

So what gives?. Just sheer leg speed?, since both sets of athletes are explosive.

Its quite interesting.

32

IT comes down to physics. Here are a few quotes that i think make it simple.

THis is a quote from Mike young over at Elite track : "Vertical forces are important for Vmax running because at maximum velocity the system acts very much like a spring or a bouncing ball. Forward momentum is developed through the acceleration / drive phase and at maximum velocity the net propulsive forces are 0. The vertical forces are what keep the system going (keep the ball bouncing). Without high vertical forces the system ceases to act as a spring-mass model and deceleration occurs.

At it’s most basic level we can think of it like this: the acceleration phase develops forward momentum—-> the body will now tend to stay at a constant velocity unless acted on by external forces (gravity, air resistance, friction, etc.). These situations of course do not occur on earth but this statement will be most relevant to the sprinter / coach if they aim to get the system to act as a perfect spring (forces in = forces out). To do this a sprinter needs high vertical forces to keep the ball bouncing. Without the high vertical forces the system becomes less and less perfectly elastic (not to be confused with the concept of the same name typically used in sprinting) and the sprinter will decelerate more and more.

You maximize vertical force output through proper sprint mechanics and force, rate of force, and power development. "

and from Tom Tellez “Tom proceeded to share the simple concept of the garden hose spraying water . When you tilt slightly back the garden hose will see the water rise, given that you are holding it parallel to the ground. The best angle is a combination of physics and anatomy, and increasing the forces on the down stroke of the stride will increase the distance, sort of like turning on the water pressure. Efforts to pull back will cause you to fall on your face. Since you are already sprinting vertical forces with trajectory angle will allow for greater levels of speed only if you can apply the forces better (power,contact time,technique).”

here is a link on maxv mechanics and it goes into the varying forces. http://www.scarboroughtrack.com/sprintingmechanics.pdf

Also, what I failed to point out in my original post comparing 40s and verts, many of the top vertical jumpers were from defensive linemen and tight ends and players who are capable of developing tons of power but there body types are nno condusive to sprinting.

Although there are many similiarities to vertical jumping, there is still a huge difference in the RFD compared to sprinting.

Let us not also forget that these players do not necasasrily have the expertise of sprint coaching avaibale, so although they maay have all of the necassary qualities to be a good sprinter, they are unable to express these qualities because they dont know how to run.

33

I am not surprised that guys with great vertical may not be great sprinters. As you say, they may just not know how. It does kind of surprise me that the top sprinters are not also terrific on verticals. But it is clear that the two events are testing different attributes, or else they wouldn’t have two tests. A few years back, I read an article (sports page, not science journal) that said that college football coaches think that vertical is a better predictor of success than the 40 is. This is in terms of evaluating high school talent. Maybe 4 years later when evaluating for the NFL it would be different.