question about allan wells training

[lylemcd]

@Sharmer

I have been doing speed skating for the last 6 months as an alternate stimulus for sprint running and have had very positive cross over effects for sprinting. Cross training can work providing the balance is appropriate. In the case of the injury prone athlete cross training is a vital training ingredient.

Speed skating: full body exercise using a lot of muscle mass including the legs at a decent tempo.

Speedball: some boxing drill (righ)? involving primarily upper body so small amounts of muscle mass.

Using the first to (try to) prove the other is retarded but so is this entire debate.

Lyle

[stormbikes]

@lylemcd

Speed skating: full body exercise using a lot of muscle mass including the legs at a decent tempo.

Speedball: some boxing drill (righ)? involving primarily upper body so small amounts of muscle mass.

Using the first to (try to) prove the other is retarded but so is this entire debate.

Lyle

And you think that’s what he was trying to do - do you??? Mmmmmm amazing!
You’ve obviously never tried using a speedball have you? Lol

[kentcounty]

@lylemcd

Speed skating: full body exercise using a lot of muscle mass including the legs at a decent tempo.

Speedball: some boxing drill (righ)? involving primarily upper body so small amounts of muscle mass.

Using the first to (try to) prove the other is retarded but so is this entire debate.

Lyle

I think that is the problem in some of this debate, that the limited knowledge most of us have with the specifics of the Bradley program. He endorses a specific way in hitting the speedball. I don’t believe it is hit with the traditional boxers style. I understand that it uses more swaying and activation on the hips and lower body. With this in mind it could be endorsed as an all over body exercise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yem8PYcJAp0

Not sure if this vid does it full justice though.

[Hicksy]

Sevo

It’s all written down to the tee in the JB book. How about you go and buy it and learn from there rather than people telling you. Youngy follows the preparation as per the book, without the addition of other methods.

[100m001]

@Sevastocrator

If pro runners run to their full potential in every race they run, and keep improving their results (times) they would be pulled back which would reduce their chance of winning. Therefore, pro runners train with different motifs in comparison to amateur sprinters. This is an important aspect of their training regime. One can call it cheating, or dead running or not running to their full potential. Call it whatever you want but it very much exists and PRO coaches throughout the 20 century AND TODAY “tapper” their sprinters to a specific race.

I am saying that this is something that has been going on in pro running culture and WILL CONTINUE to happen. If anyone wants to deny this he/she is either in denial or fooling around. What is the point then if a pro runner would want to run faster every time he runs? He will be pulled back, as I already said and miss out on the ultimate prize he trained for.

Winning “gifts” and naming “champions” of pro running in this thread can be deceiving to say the least. It needs to be noted that those “champs” did not run off scratch (with a few exceptions only) when they were winning gifts as it rarely happens. Winning a gift for instance off 5-10m mark is not an indication that the person who won it is the fastest and therefore a true champ. That person had been given an advantage over faster runners who were pulled back. That is pro running, and yes, I understand that.

The Bradley method has helped those runners to be FIT when it mattered. This strength and conditioning method was a perfect TOOL to be sharp BUT not the fastest. Be sharp to win the ultimate gift prize but do not be the fastest runner out there because otherwise you would have a less chance in winning.

@Sevastocrator

Oh no. It very much depends on the mark one gets. So in fact, to win the Stawell gift one needs to be strategic, run slightly slower, stay undetected, score a batter mark, peak at Stawell, and execute all the races right to win it.

If one keeps improving (as one would want to do so in the mainstream sprints) over the season he will be on the radar, will be pulled back and WON’T win it.

This is the reason why majority of pro runners fail to improve their running times. You can not learn to run a little bit slow, then try to run real fast in one or over 3 races and then again continue running reasonably slow so you are not hit with a more unfavourrable mark.

There is no system in pro running that will switch on your ability to run fast today while the next day you simply switch it off.

It is either impossible or one is cheating. Therefore the Bradley method is the method that kept some pro runners well prepared and conditioned for gifts but they would never make it in the mainstream sprints simply because they were never prepared to run every single race to their max. potential.

Ask yourself why M. Green or O. Thomson couldn’t win the Stawell gift eventhough they were the fastest runners on the day.

@Sevastocrator

Professional runners do not try to win every event that they enter. Their objective is to win a particular, specified race: in the argot of the sport, the one for which they are ‘set’. The set race often is several years away and the athlete’s training and running tactics are organised with it in mind. The ‘handling’ of the runner, typically in the form of the ruses dictated by the trainer, in this long preparatory period is vital to securing a successful outcome. Much of the routine and expected cheating associated with the sport takes place in this lead-up to the runner’s set race.

Harry Boyle once said to me that ‘handicap is everything’ in professional running. Rob Monaghan, a man who ran through the years of the Depression and trained runners for several decades more, had an explicit strategy of letting his runners go-off only when they had achieved a very favourable handicap, even if this meant years of running dead. Rob also went to considerable lengths to ensure that his runners were concealed from the gaze of those who might realise their potential, pick the race in which they were going-off and take the ‘cream’ of the ‘market’. (18)

Running dead is a skill learned from the start of a professional athlete’s participation in the sport. The actual techniques can differ between sprinters and distance runners, although runners of all distances commonly put in a very hard training session or run the evening or the morning before a meeting so that carry-over fatigue prevents them from performing to their true ability.

I have read through this whole thread and I need more clarification on this particular topic. I know top professional sprinters avoid racing each other and I’m sure some sprint races are staged but it sounds like you are describing that there is a whole lot more going on. Can you expound on this?

[Youngy]

Sevas - Why can’t you answer the questions? If you can demonstrate that your coaching methods are superior it would help with the credibility of your anti-Jim Bradley crusade.

Until Sevascrator answers what I thought were pretty direct & simple questions put to him, I’m finished with this thread.

[Sevastocrator]

Hicksy

It’s all written down to the tee in the JB book. How about you go and buy it and learn from there rather than people telling you. Youngy follows the preparation as per the book, without the addition of other methods.

I already have the book BUT that is not my point. Is it so damn hard to understand?

I want to see those puppies that have been defending so called the Bradley method in their real light. And that is - show me what you try to preach!

Show me that YOU have done your homework! Show me that you want to participate in this debate loaded with KNOWLEDGE not mere …oh because some other guy says JB was a good coach I reckon no one should DARE to raise voice of criticism over an Australian icon!

LoL

Bull!

I promise I will dissect JB’ book and his so called method on a separate thread in a week or so. I simply do not have time to structure a string of messages on that particular topic now.

If these people who supposedly claim to be familiar with the JB method, which they have been vigorously defending, can not present an honest and objective comparative analysis it tells me one or two things;

• they either have no clue about the JB method
• or so called the Bradley method does not have what they claim it does.

Clueless or liars.

Prove me wrong

Do not skip around saying - what the hell is your contribution to the sport?

In pro running? NONE ZERO!

I would never ever want to train a pro runner. Yuk! These are second grade athletes that could not have made it in the mainstream athletics (with a few exceptions!) and are going for the scraps in the pro running. I mean - come on - let’s be honest. I would rather play darts then train to achieve 10.70sec. over the 100m and then dare to come around this joint claiming some guys to be “champions”?!

The bottom line is - who do you want to coach and to what level?

Let’s be honest and open about it. I am always ready to admit I was wrong and I would switch to a better and more advanced system. I do not care about making career as a coach. If one of my athletes makes it to an elite level I will happily stay low profile. However, I would even at that point embrace any system that really works not being shy to admit that it is not my own.

So if tomorrow Youngy proves that his athletes are true elite athletes while following the Bradley method I will be the first one to embrace it and duly apologise to Youngy personally admitting that I was wrong about JB.

Finally, instead trying to label me as an incompetent and non-credible member teach me a lesson in front of all here on what the Bradley method really is about.

Can you do at least that much?

P.S. What do I need to say to make you get this info on this forum so other people can benefit from it if it is that good?

[Hicksy]

Sevo

If you read from pg171 in JB’s book, it has the complete gym & track preparation phase (GPP) for you to peruse. Plain and simple, even you could understand it?

[Youngy]

Sevas - I’m well and truly over all this. I don’t care what you do. Please never consider using speedball and just try to enjoy what you are doing.

I derive a great deal of satisfaction & enjoy coaching a terrific group of dedicated athletes, regardless of natural ability, and try to offer variety in the competitions so they can enjoy some level of success.

An interesting thing to note is that since you reignited this ‘discussion’ my forum rep points has gone from 43 where it had been for several months up to 46.

The defence rests.

[Sevastocrator]

An interesting thing to note is that since you reignited this ‘discussion’ my forum rep points has gone from 43 where it had been for several months up to 46.

Congratulations! It is the achievement of a lifetime. The rate of success is obviously greater then the success you derived from speedball practicing

My rating went down by one! Must be either yourself or one of your cronies

I guess you will eventually rejoin me sometime next week when I commence with the dissection of speed ball exercising

All the best.

[grooster]

@Sevastocrator

Grooster

Let’s stay focused. Frankie who? My argument isn’t whether some runner has or has not improved under the Bradley method rather my argument is that the Bradley method is a strength and conditioning method and that under such a method one could not succeed in a way of becoming an ELITE sprinter. If this method was that good many elite sprinters would be following it.

The Burnie …, what? Has anyone apart from all the Aussies on this forum heard of this competition? Yeah, that’s how significant the Burnie gift internationally is!

Imagine if I was to mention some local race in Hungary or Kazakhstan saying that Borat was a true champion and that the method of his coach should be at least considered by the mainstream sprinters?

Hilarious!

Who are you to tell me to stay focused.
I just added this because it was an outstanding achievement using the Allen Wells training,the name of the thread.
Now,if someones natural ability is 11.3 secs for 100m and they improve to 10.7secs or better they would be over the moon.This has been proven to occur many times over using the Bradley method.i do not believe for a second that you do not know what the Bradley method is.If this method was a mere strength and conditioning method they would not improve their speed.
Now this method is only known in the tight knit circles of Scottish and professional athletics,nothing wrong with that, so hence, it is not familiar on the world stage.The only elite level sprinter to have tried it won an Olympic 100m title.
Feel free to dissect this method but be careful about telling people how they can respond,as you have said numerous times, it is an open forum.

[Sevastocrator]

Now,if someones natural ability is 11.3 secs for 100m and they improve to 10.7secs or better they would be over the moon.

Truly amazing! I too used to know a guy who used to smoke, never showed up for training, chased girls, got drunk at least twice a week and as a 16yo ran at nationals 10.65. He used to show up only to compete. Generally he ran under 11.00 sec. in flats, no warm up, just fooled around and was the fastest kid in town. When he turned 18-19 he still ran 10.65 or under 11.00 in flats. He never improved because he did not care.

That is a great talent. But without a decent plan and focus he really never fulfilled his potential.

And so what?

What’s that got to do with anything? Was Frankie an elite runner? I bet he won off 7m too

[stormbikes]

@Sevastocrator

Truly amazing! I too used to know a guy who used to smoke, never showed up for training, chased girls, got drunk at least twice a week and as a 16yo ran at nationals 10.65. He used to show up only to compete. Generally he ran under 11.00 sec. in flats, no warm up, just fooled around and was the fastest kid in town. When he turned 18-19 he still ran 10.65 or under 11.00 in flats. He never improved because he did not care.

That is a great talent. But without a decent plan and focus he really never fulfilled his potential.

And so what?

What’s that got to do with anything? Was Frankie an elite runner? I bet he won off 7m too

Mmmmmmm -imagine what your 16yo could have
done on the Bradley method - probably would
have gone under 10 now don’t you think???

[stormbikes]

@Sevastocrator

What’s that got to do with anything? Was Frankie an elite runner? I bet he won off 7m too

and the relevance of this is???
What is it with some people that they must always
knock others performances just because they are
not in the top couple of percent???

[Sharmer]

Sevastocrator you seem very bitter towards pro runners. I am sure you ran one year at Stawell and didn’t break 13s for the 120m from 7m. And while you’re so open and frank, it’s only fair if I let the truth out to everyone on this forum. You have the 100m speed of around 11.6 and your coaching ability is yet to be proven. There’s no shame in running no better than 11.6 for the 100m. I ran at best last year 11.41 and definitely have no issues with admitting that. No need to cut down others in order to feel better about your own achievements.

[Sharmer]

@kentcounty

When you talk about ‘cross over’, do you refer to the right shoulder and left hip/knee (and left to right), or is the ‘cross over’ between sports?

Cross over between sports.

[Sharmer]

@kitkat1

Many years ago Loren Seagrave told me he thought one of the things he brought to athletics coaching was his insights and some movement ideas gained from his own background in ice skating: hockey maybe, can’t remember now. As an aside, when you go to Oslo you see lots of speed skaters etc walking in deep, slow lunges around the track doing their summer training for their ice season…

However, I do suspect the ice work may be of greater help to an athletics sprinter in taking the bend, rather than any other aspect of the track sprint.

Short track ice work would be more specific for the bend. Long track speed skating involves 100m straights. The elite guys do break 10s for the first 100m, the first 10m is literally a sprint on Ice with speed skates.

[kitkat1]

@Sharmer

Short track ice work would be more specific for the bend. Long track speed skating involves 100m straights. The elite guys do break 10s for the first 100m, the first 10m is literally a sprint on Ice with speed skates.

That’s impressive!

I can’t be sure any more and wouldn’t want to misquote Loren, but I think the crossover between sports had something to do with triple extension and the “pushing off” by skaters as applied to running, perhaps primarily around the bend?

[Sevastocrator]

Sevastocrator you seem very bitter towards pro runners. I am sure you ran one year at Stawell and didn’t break 13s for the 120m from 7m. And while you’re so open and frank, it’s only fair if I let the truth out to everyone on this forum. You have the 100m speed of around 11.6 and your coaching ability is yet to be proven. There’s no shame in running no better than 11.6 for the 100m. I ran at best last year 11.41 and definitely have no issues with admitting that. No need to cut down others in order to feel better about your own achievements.

Sharmer

Just to satisfy your curiosity my event was not 100m even though I have run the 100m and as a 17yo many moons ago I ran 10.92 electric. I am not sure where you got 11.6 from but that’s just proves that many of you either do not read carefully or simply you are not getting my point.

I could not care less about pro runners and I’ve never ever run at Stawell. I would be a bit too old for that.

What else would you like to know about me? And if you do find out more about me will it make the Bradley method more credible anywhere around the world?

Kids.

[Sevastocrator]

and the relevance of this is???
What is it with some people that they must always
knock others performances just because they are
not in the top couple of percent???

Storm

The relevance is that even though Frankie has won 2-3 races that year/day he was never an elite runner as he competed at low profile second or third grade local or provincial pro gifts. Big deal!

I bet that apart from maybe 10 people on this forum no one else has ever heard of Frankie. There are many Frankies around in any backyard who can run as fast as Frankie did…

Even though he may have improved under the Bradley method (and who would not improve under any other method as long as they are organised and thorough with their training) the Bradley method did not make him blazing fast but well conditioned and average runner.