have incorrectly applied Charlie’s principles, or have simply cut and pasted his training program examples with no regard for their individual circumstances and needs of their athletes.
Absolutely spot on No.2! I’ve seen this too. Copy/paste - too easy, one would think 
Not so, and is wrong.
Have to agree. I can only interpret what Charlie actually meant, and apply it to my athletes of basic standard, work full time in manual labour jobs or office jobs, and chronic injuries. Is my interpretations correct, I have no idea. I am reluctant to let my athletes see written programmes, because wrote/said athletes will do what they see and not necessarily what they should at the time.
As for Powell, I hope he can put together a good major championships effort and runs well. Can he lose 25lb (11kg) in 2 months without hindering performance, I hope so.
Well put DMA. What you said is what Charlie would have hoped for coaches following his method.
I have been following Charlie’s work since 1986 - that first seminar I attended at the age of 17 years (still have a few notes from that seminar). I have had the opportunity to coach sprinters for the past 20 years, and had the opportunity to work with Charlie for many years. Am I an expert when it comes to the Charlie Francis Training System? I would say I’m not. And, this is after 25 years of following his material. Have his guidelines, assertions and methods made a significant impression on how I coach on a daily basis? Yes - they are pretty hard wired into my system now. In particular, his words about how to be a good coach: “Do what you need to do to make sure the athletes are always improving. Don’t let people tell you otherwise what your eyes, ears and instincts are telling you.”
Well stated No 2, its a good reminder to everyone to think hard about their own athletes and how they should be applying CF’s principles to help them and not just copy his sample programmes.
Keep up the good work.
Somebody should put together a quote book of numbertwo’s and charlie’s best quotes.
Well if we consider the reality of the situation which is that it’s a copy and paste industry and most of what is copied and pasted is of lower quality than bargain toilet paper…obviously not ENOUGH coaches have copied and pasted Charlie’s work into the training of their own athletes because based upon the incompetence that runs rampant throughout the industry even an inappropriate copy and paste would be a monumental improvement over what most athletes are getting (regardless of sport)
True enough!
I’m hoping that I can create a video (from all the seminars we did) with Charlie’s best stories and best lines. Some of his best stories would require me to “bleep” out names, but I’m sure you could figure out who he is talking about.
Guys remember, very few people get the opportunity to mentor under great coaches so they need somewhere logical to start from hence some of the cut and paste. I consider myself an above average critical thinker, however I have never had the luxury of being around any great coach for more than a couple hours and that has only been in the last year. So…where would I start, where would I find even a basic template? Think about it. Personally I seek out the experts when I get curious about something and I begin to somewhat (gasp) copy them and at the same time refine it to my situation. I see nothing wrong with that. It is the smart thing to do. Why reinvent the wheel. It is better than starting completely from scratch. It is what John Smith did and I am sure Charlie and probably Dan Pfaff did. So if someone takes the short to long template and hopefully is smart enough to tailor volumes to themselves or other athletes what’s the problem? Any of the coaches I would listen to, i.e. Charlie, Pfaff, Smith, Tellez all said they have a daily template and adjust it as they see how the athlete responds that day.
And I have to ask, if that template looks drastically different from Charlie’s “real world” workouts why even publish it…sounds misleading. That is not how Charlie came across when discussing those templates on here. Every time he talked about specific training on those templates it sounded like he would actually use them in the real world.
Cant wait for that.
Well I think the templates can be used in real world situations but the situation has to present itself. Charlie couldnt go around sayin just use this template and you will have success.
lr400 - this response is not directed at your post, but just a general observation on the state of coaching and teaching these days… (I can empathize with the main thrust of your argument, however…)
If you examine the chronology in which the various diagrams were created for Charlie’s presentation, the initial diagrams were all conceptual in nature, with no specifics provide on detailed workouts. Even Ben’s plan was presented in a general sense. Only later - after many requests for a more specific weekly plan - did we create an example of a progression from S-L and L-S. It was never meant to be a template - but more of an illustration of the progression of training elements. There was no hypothetical athlete used in the creation of that diagram (i.e. Athlete A with x amount of years of training behind them, with a personal best of 10.27 seconds, and a history of hamstring pulls, and a part-time job). You can use those diagrams to get a sense of why volume is rising in one element and why it is falling in another element, how to integrate new training types without creating soreness, and add intensity to runs throughout a plan. Again, I would not copy that diagram verbatim and use it on an athlete. It was published for discussion purposes.
“So if someone takes the short to long template and hopefully is smart enough to tailor volumes to themselves or other athletes what’s the problem?”
Unfortunately, it appears that people are not smart enough to tailor their workouts to the specific needs of the athlete – herein lies the problem. Nobody here is telling you not to take other coaches’ information and make informed decisions on how their structure can apply to you. But copying workouts rep for rep is not an acceptable practice, and I think it is our responsbility to ensure that new coaches do not think it is an acceptable practice (nor does it qualify as acceptable professional development).
You mention that few people get the opportunity to mentor under great coaches. I would argue that it is each young coach’s responsibility to seek out a proper mentor and learn from them (if not a number of mentors). Surfing the internet for information is not an acceptable means of developing coaching knowledge or ability. How do you think coaches learned in the days before the internet? The information was passed on from coach to coach in person. It is so easy to gain information, but so rare for individuals to gain wisdom these days. I challenge young coaches to go out and travel the US and Canada (or any other continent for that matter), scraping every dime you have to find the best information. Because you know what, there are lots of great coaches and mentors out there that don’t have web sites, DVD’s or books. It is your job as a coach to seek those individuals and pick their brain and observe them in action.
There was a great audio interview floating around the internet with Al Vermeil. He was asked what new strength coaches could do to learn more about their profession. Al came straight out and said, “You need to go to the great coaches out there and learn from them first-hand. It’s going to cost you money, but it will be well worth it.” There is way too much complacency out there in the coaching profession and strength and conditioning profession. People are considered “experts” based on what they say in a forum post or an internet blog.
I truly apologize for the rant, but I’m sick and tired of the number of “experts” we have out there who haven’t done piss all to expand their knowledge and coaching wisdom. When I was looking to promote my last conference, I searched a whole bunch of web sites for contact information for potential attendees. I was shocked at how many people claimed to be speed experts, strength experts or rehab experts with as little as 1-3 years out of university. And, guess what, most of these people did not attend my conference - a conference where we had speakers with minimum 25-30 years individual experience in their profession.
I asked legendary strength coach, Al Miller, if he gets calls from young strength coaches in the NFL about how they could learn from his experience and wisdom. He said that he gets no calls from current NFL strength coaches. (He helps out at a local high school in Louisiana). Very few people seek out Coach Al Vermeil for advice. He’s retired, has a good amount of time on his hands, has an infinite amount of knowledge and would be welcome to share his ideas with young strength coaches. I would think his phone should be ringing off the hook. It isn’t.
KitKat on the forum here at CF.com is a fantastic coach with lots of wisdom and past success. I would hope that anyone who is on this forum and lives in Australia would PM KitKat and go and visit and learn from him. He is a tremendous resource.
When I went to see Charlie speak in 2001 in Santa Clarita, California, I spent $650 on the seminar, $500 on the flight, $300 on the hotel and another $150 on food. I didn’t have a full time job at the time. But I’ll tell you something, every penny of it was worth it and I would have paid twice the amount if I had to do it again. I arrived early to the seminar to talk with Charlie, I spoke with him during the breaks, I spoke with him after the seminar, then made sure that when everyone went to dinner in the evening, I was sitting at the same table as Charlie. I would say that it took me 5-7 years to fully realize much of the information presented to me that weekend. Not because I’m not an intelligent person. But it takes years and years of working with athletes before you can get a full understanding of the concepts Charlie presents. You need to “walk in the man’s shoes” to an extent.
Long story short – It takes lots of time, plenty of effort, lots of money and incredible passion to learn how to be a good coach. And, it is an ongoing, never-ending process. At the age of 65, Coach Al Vermeil calls me once per week and has a list of questions he wants to go over. It is not unusual for me to be on the phone with him for 90 minutes. Sometimes, it is a 3 minute call. But I still get the calls. And I still make the calls to him.
I think the most important questions to ask with regards to Charlie’s training methods don’t begin with “what,” but rather with “why.”
I am certain that Charlie would agree 100% Actuary!
I had a great coach back in 1990. He was the eventual coach for Robert Zmelik - who won the 1992 Decathlon in Barcelona. His name is Eduard and he was brought up in the Czechoslovakian sport school system. When we were training at the track one day, he observed another coach showing an athlete a drill or exercise that was completely useless and risky. Eduard got very angry and sat us down (like we were school children). His English at the time sucked. Eduard told us, “If ever coach is telling you something, do not be afraid to ask - For What?” Eduard didn’t know how to use the word “Why”. But from that day on, I could see and hear him saying adamantly “FOR WHAT?” I tell that story to my athletes all the time and encourage them to ask me questions.
“FOR WHAT?”
It’s interesting. From the video, it appears that much of Powell’s advantage on the field was gained from 0 to 50m. The high camera angle from the finish line gives the impression that he moves on the group from 50-80, but the profile robot-cam shows that his advantage on the group was gained from 30-50m. Powell does not improve his lead on the 2nd place competitor (Frater) from 60-100m, and it even appears that he loses a bit of ground at the end. Lemaitre also closes a bit.
It begs the question - are his current max-velocity and speed endurance mechanics actually paying off? Frater doesn’t have as much front-side mechanics as Powell, but actually stays with him. What if a healthy Bolt or Gay was in that race?
Would be nice to have some accurate 10m splits from that race to confirm some of these ideas.
Thanks for your kind words earlier today No.2.
Looking at the profile action of the RAI video it might be easy to believe there is nothing like Triple ERxtension going on. But the T/E is so brief it is almost impossible to see it at normal speed. However, it is there and it is clearly something Powell is trying for. There is room for improvement on the evidence of this film. Maybe some more therapy to mobilise the hips and restore length to the hammies/quads will see him PB by worlds. I hope so anyway. He is such a lovely guy. Look how he interacts with the Jamaicans in the crowd understanding they must have made an effort to get out to watch him in Lausanne.
His T/E appears to be more happening almost directly Underneath him.
Has anybody seen what races he has done, what races he is planned to run, and what race number 18 for the year is?
The simple answer is none. Though I do remember something about signing privacy papers, maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion.
My comment was not in reference to L to S, S to L or repetions and sets it was simply to do with the body/limp positions. What is done to achieve those positions is not what most think, I call mechanics.
No I have not been to university. Why, because I did not want to.
Sady - I’m not questioning your intelligence or coaching smarts (being on this forum and contributing shows me that you take coaching seriously and understand the importance of the discussion taking place at CF.com). I’m just making a point regarding the assumption that many coaches are applying Charlie’s principles in their workout planning as Charlie would have. This is clearly not happening as I’ve seen it.
Regarding university, I have a couple of degrees in areas that are totally unrelated to what I’m doing now. It was a good place to be an athlete and meet girls - that’s about it. My theory is that the concept of university was developed to create a holding tank (or purgatory) for young adults so that we don’t flood the workplace and have massive unemployment. It is an acceptable place for them to loiter while living at or below the poverty line with the hope that better things will come. It has nothing to do with learning.
I learned that my liver is able to process significantly more alcohol than I would have thought possible.