Posture?

[kwave]

I would like for members of this forum to please share their experiences regarding bad posture (like anterior pelvic tilt, scoliosis, uneven pelvis or shoulders, etc. due to uneven muscle balance or skeletal structural misalignment) in regards to sprint training.

I personally have been having frequent tightness around the middle of the inguinal crease on the front of my hip joint. When it gets bad, it gives me stabbing pain.

I went to a chiropractor and was told that it may be due to uneven pelvis, where there was 9mm level discrepancy between both sides according to x-ray image. I was told that I would need orthotics.

What do you all think of orthotics? When I was in university, I was told that overly depending on orthotics may result in loss of your own body (especially of the feet arch) to absorb shock and all. It’s like how people used to wear cushionny shoes to absorb all the poundings, but now people are realizing that it can be counterproductive and minimalist (barefeet) training are on the rise.

However, I’ve seen podriatrist prescribe special orthotics in the Jane Project video.

What do you all think of orthotics and if it were to be used, how would you use it? Would you use it all the time? Would you only use it for specific circumstances only? (ex. prolonged walking or during training) Would you progress yourself out of it eventually?

I do not believe I have pes cavus or pes planus (high or low arch).

How does orthotics help sprints anyway? Sprints are done on forefoot, unlike walking and running. Elevating the heel to even out the pelvic level won’t work if you’re not on your heels.

I believe I pulled my hamstring 2 years ago due to the inguinal crease pain I described above, and therefore I’m desperate to solve this issue.

Ms.Coon, I’ve read that you have had uneven pelvis and been told that you were able to compensate very well due to your outstanding flexibility, but still had orthotics. May I ask if this pelvic issue caused you any hamstring issue or trouble activating glutes?

[hornblower]

check your shoulders aren’t too far forward.

be wary of orthotics…

[kwave]

@hornblower

check your shoulders aren’t too far forward.

be wary of orthotics…

Well, my Chiropractor told me that my shoulder heights not even and that I had some turtle neck. I don’t think he said anything about the shoulders being too far forward though.

With regard to orthotics, would you say it is bad or just need to be used with caution, and with guidance from someone with experience in applying orthotics in training?

Thank you for your reply.

[hornblower]

@kwave

Well, my Chiropractor told me that my shoulder heights not even and that I had some turtle neck. I don’t think he said anything about the shoulders being too far forward though.

With regard to orthotics, would you say it is bad or just need to be used with caution, and with guidance from someone with experience in applying orthotics in training?

Thank you for your reply.

ok, maybe they aren’t too far forward, but I find a lot of hip problems are linked to shoulder problems (free your arms and your ass will follow! ). In this case there is an uneven balance between the shoulders which translates to unevenness in the hips.

the turtle neck posture also pulls on the area behind the shoulder blades, which in turn adds tension through the posterior chain. when that area is fixed it’s amazing how loose your legs start to feel.

as for orthotics, I have personally had some negative experiences where “correcting” the feet/ankles caused numerous other problems higher up. some people say orthotics have helped them, but I know of a few people who have had similar experiences to me. this is why I say “be wary”, not “don’t use them”. find out for yourself.

hope this helps…

[kwave]

@hornblower

ok, maybe they aren’t too far forward, but I find a lot of hip problems are linked to shoulder problems (free your arms and your ass will follow! ). In this case there is an uneven balance between the shoulders which translates to unevenness in the hips.

the turtle neck posture also pulls on the area behind the shoulder blades, which in turn adds tension through the posterior chain. when that area is fixed it’s amazing how loose your legs start to feel.

as for orthotics, I have personally had some negative experiences where “correcting” the feet/ankles caused numerous other problems higher up. some people say orthotics have helped them, but I know of a few people who have had similar experiences to me. this is why I say “be wary”, not “don’t use them”. find out for yourself.

hope this helps…

Yes, as you mentioned, shoulders can affect hips and cause problems. It is just the way the body compensates. I’ve also been told my turtle neck tends to make that area more tense, and I can sort of see that it can also cause tightness lower down as well.

I’d love to know more experiences and feedbacks regarding orthotics and hopefully make a good decision when it comes to it.

Thank you.

[robin1]

I used to have anterior head carriage/turtle neck posture, which was fixed when I started reading/studying while lying on my stomach.

[sady]

@kwave

Well, my Chiropractor told me that my shoulder heights not even and that I had some turtle neck. I don’t think he said anything about the shoulders being too far forward though.

With regard to orthotics, would you say it is bad or just need to be used with caution, and with guidance from someone with experience in applying orthotics in training?

Thank you for your reply.

Find someone who can do manipulation massage. Get the muscles both sides where they should be from the toes to the neck.

[kwave]

@robin1

I used to have anterior head carriage/turtle neck posture, which was fixed when I started reading/studying while lying on my stomach.

I often read laying on my back and my stomach (going back and forth between the two) but it seems to me I need something else to correct my posture.

[kwave]

@sady

Find someone who can do manipulation massage. Get the muscles both sides where they should be from the toes to the neck.

I’ve been getting manipulations and grastons and ARTs to release tight areas and while it does relieve symptoms, it doesn’t seem to be enough to fix the root of the problem.

[kwave]

Can anyone please explain how orthotics work? I’ve done some research about it and I’ve read a lot about how it would support the arch for the people with flat arch. However, I don’t have a low or high arch. Can orthotics be used to eventually, but permanently correct leg length discrepancy?

I really want to fix my hip alignment and if I end up using orthotics for it I want to gradually be able to reduce the dependence on it (probably lowering the height little by little) so that even if takes months or years, that my body would learn to stand up well aligned without the help of the orthotics.

I’ve read a lot of contradicting posts about it; a lot of people only talk about the correcting effect when you are wearing it, but not permanent effect in changing your posture. Some people say they got injured more wearing it (http://runnersconnect.net/running-injury-prevention/leg-length-discrepancy-running/) while this post (http://advancedhealth.ca/conditions/short-leg-syndrome.html) says that it can permanently correct posture. “As you progress through the treatment, the chiropractor will aim to reduce the amount of lift in your shoe to the smallest amount possible.”, “By doing this at each visit, the heel lift will be reduced to the minimum needed for maximum effect, the eventual aim being to have no lift if possible.”

I would appreciate anyone sharing their knowledge about how these work and experience with them.

Thank you.

[ESTI]

Without seeing you in person and doing an assessment, I can’t speak specifically of your issues. However, here are common themes I find:

Chiros feel everyones hips are off and people have a short leg/long leg (most feel it’s anatomical and not functionally short/long), podiatrists think everyone needs orthotics, ART practioners think adhesions are the cause of all your problems and so on and so on for any other specialist. I’m not bashing them, as I think those I mentioned have it’s place in treatment. A hammer can only be used for so many things, and the same for a wrench, if you get my analogy.

Most “short legs” are functional in nature, meaning it’s possible the various muscles in the trunk, shoulders and neck will cause that side to “lift.” Tom Myers has some nice videos of his body scanning where he talks about this. There are some people who have true anatomical short leg, and Ange is one of them. Textbook assessment would also look at the knees and ankles, as well as the lower ribs and shoulders to ensure the issue a short leg.

I might look for a Rolfer in your area who can do a full body session a few times.

I would caution before getting orthotics, to find someone who can do Pressure Mapping while you run. For over a year I treated a professonal distance runner who for 22 years, had limited injuries. She changed training groups and began doing many miles on a crowned dirt road. She later got a stress fracture. She went to her team’s doctor who insisted she needed orthotics (and never asked her about the crown roads), she got them and sustained 2 more stress fractures, and likely a 3rd that was never imaged, in the following year. She finally through them out and has had no issues since. She had pressure mapping down and at faster speeds, there was no difference in mapping with orthotics and without them, and at slower speeds there wasn’t much difference either.

TEKScan’s company site has a list of providers that may be near your area. Bruce Williams in Chicago/Indiana is well known as well and worth traveling to see. The old forum member Clemson highly recommends him.

[kwave]

@ESTI

Without seeing you in person and doing an assessment, I can’t speak specifically of your issues. However, here are common themes I find:

Chiros feel everyones hips are off and people have a short leg/long leg (most feel it’s anatomical and not functionally short/long), podiatrists think everyone needs orthotics, ART practioners think adhesions are the cause of all your problems and so on and so on for any other specialist. I’m not bashing them, as I think those I mentioned have it’s place in treatment. A hammer can only be used for so many things, and the same for a wrench, if you get my analogy.

Most “short legs” are functional in nature, meaning it’s possible the various muscles in the trunk, shoulders and neck will cause that side to “lift.” Tom Myers has some nice videos of his body scanning where he talks about this. There are some people who have true anatomical short leg, and Ange is one of them. Textbook assessment would also look at the knees and ankles, as well as the lower ribs and shoulders to ensure the issue a short leg.

I might look for a Rolfer in your area who can do a full body session a few times.

I would caution before getting orthotics, to find someone who can do Pressure Mapping while you run. For over a year I treated a professonal distance runner who for 22 years, had limited injuries. She changed training groups and began doing many miles on a crowned dirt road. She later got a stress fracture. She went to her team’s doctor who insisted she needed orthotics (and never asked her about the crown roads), she got them and sustained 2 more stress fractures, and likely a 3rd that was never imaged, in the following year. She finally through them out and has had no issues since. She had pressure mapping down and at faster speeds, there was no difference in mapping with orthotics and without them, and at slower speeds there wasn’t much difference either.

TEKScan’s company site has a list of providers that may be near your area. Bruce Williams in Chicago/Indiana is well known as well and worth traveling to see. The old forum member Clemson highly recommends him.

I wonder why a lot of Chiros and podiatrists want to prescribe orthotics. Do they get a lot of commission money for selling them?

I got some Rolfing at the Chiro clinic I go to but the people there don’t seem to think rolfing or adjustments or any kind of soft tissue release can fix large leg length discrepancy like over 4mm or so.

I find it interesting that you mentioned pressure mapping to confirm whether or not orthotics are helping achieve desired effect. Would you say it would be too risky to get one if I am unable to get pressure mapping?

Thank you for sharing.

[wermouth]

Re: Orthotics
There are different types of orthotics.
One of guys I coach have been using it because we are trying to correct lateral foot rotation, we can see improvements.
My suggestion is to get your body in order get fully mobile and flexible, that’s it.

When everything will function well then apply external tools if necessary.

Just an example:
There are couple new people in the group I coach (joined 6 weeks ago) and they want run fast and lift well, their level of mobility and flexibility is shocking (cannot perform basic hurdles walkovers without turning hips and shoulders) just like the list of their injuries. Athletes level of fitness should be better then the average, in their case is worst (WTF?!)
One of them have most of the symptoms you have wrote in the first post.

I would not use orthotics until my muscles would function fully and properly.

Re: scoliosis
I have watched some sport clinic few years ago with some Italian guru/specialist. He suggested that most of the scoliosis comes from tightness of hip flexors. When on one side muscle is extremely tight is starting to pull/ rotate hip consequently your body has to compensate in other areas such as spine.
Allow hip flexor to be long enough to get the hip in the right position (neutral)
Also when hip flexor is tight it might be overpowered by hip extensors, consequently splints itself, to stop from damage it goes into protective mode by neurologicaly switching off gluteus, in another words it doesn’t allow gluteus to fire properly which as a consequence anterior hip rotation might occur and on top of that most of the power production is shifted towards hamstring which leads to injury.

We are lucky to have an access to national team physio who actually pointed out that most of hamstring injuries he saw occurred due to lack of mobility around hip especially hip flexors. The first thing his performing on athletes is Thomas Test which he also prescribing as a recovery exercise.

[ESTI]

@kwave

I wonder why a lot of Chiros and podiatrists want to prescribe orthotics. Do they get a lot of commission money for selling them?

I got some Rolfing at the Chiro clinic I go to but the people there don’t seem to think rolfing or adjustments or any kind of soft tissue release can fix large leg length discrepancy like over 4mm or so.

I find it interesting that you mentioned pressure mapping to confirm whether or not orthotics are helping achieve desired effect. Would you say it would be too risky to get one if I am unable to get pressure mapping?

Thank you for sharing.

Where are you located?

Here is a textbook leg length assessment and you’ll see the difference around the 2:00 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWjLGKl9NpA

The only thing I would add to this is to check the distance from the iliac crest to the lower ribs, as the QL and other lower trunk muscles can often be tight and pull the ribs down as well.

[kwave]

@ESTI

Where are you located?

Here is a textbook leg length assessment and you’ll see the difference around the 2:00 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWjLGKl9NpA

The only thing I would add to this is to check the distance from the iliac crest to the lower ribs, as the QL and other lower trunk muscles can often be tight and pull the ribs down as well.

Well I’m waaayy abroad right now… I think I could consider the pressure mapping option if I’m still struggling with this problem when I go back to the States.

I actually don’t understand how in that video you linked, the therapist has the patient straighten her legs out in supine and sitting up position and the leg length was even… even though it is revealed afterwards that her femoral lengths are uneven with her supine with the knees flexed, as well as having unevenness in standing position.

Would you say that if my leg length discrepancy was functional (due to posture) rather than anatomical, that it can be fixed by fixing muscle balance around the pelvis, such as QL, iliopsoas, etc, even if the difference was 9mm?? would you say orthotics are helpful in doing so or unnecessary?

Thank you.

[kwave]

@wermouth

Re: Orthotics
There are different types of orthotics.
One of guys I coach have been using it because we are trying to correct lateral foot rotation, we can see improvements.
My suggestion is to get your body in order get fully mobile and flexible, that’s it.

When everything will function well then apply external tools if necessary.

Just an example:
There are couple new people in the group I coach (joined 6 weeks ago) and they want run fast and lift well, their level of mobility and flexibility is shocking (cannot perform basic hurdles walkovers without turning hips and shoulders) just like the list of their injuries. Athletes level of fitness should be better then the average, in their case is worst (WTF?!)
One of them have most of the symptoms you have wrote in the first post.

I would not use orthotics until my muscles would function fully and properly.

Re: scoliosis
I have watched some sport clinic few years ago with some Italian guru/specialist. He suggested that most of the scoliosis comes from tightness of hip flexors. When on one side muscle is extremely tight is starting to pull/ rotate hip consequently your body has to compensate in other areas such as spine.
Allow hip flexor to be long enough to get the hip in the right position (neutral)
Also when hip flexor is tight it might be overpowered by hip extensors, consequently splints itself, to stop from damage it goes into protective mode by neurologicaly switching off gluteus, in another words it doesn’t allow gluteus to fire properly which as a consequence anterior hip rotation might occur and on top of that most of the power production is shifted towards hamstring which leads to injury.

We are lucky to have an access to national team physio who actually pointed out that most of hamstring injuries he saw occurred due to lack of mobility around hip especially hip flexors. The first thing his performing on athletes is Thomas Test which he also prescribing as a recovery exercise.

Well, I do a lot of hip mobility (rotations, swings) and stretching. I know that I have bad hip flexors and TFLs. I stretch, foamroll, stick massage, and graston on them. However, even though my symptoms are relieved by those, it only seem to does so by about 50-70%. I’m glad it reduces over half of the symptom, but I want to eventually fix the root of the problem. My Chiro told me it’s because my hips are still uneven and it won’t improve any further unless my hips are leveled. He thinks it cannot be fixed without orthotics, and I’m afraid of the risks of being overly dependent and/or not being able to properly adapt. However, at the same time, I’m so fed up with this hip issue after suffering from it since 2 years ago, I’m extremely desperate to fix it.

According to my x-ray image though, I had no scoliosis what so ever and my spine looked nice and straight (in the frontal view that is). Somehow I guess the hip tilt did not affect the spine.

I believe my hamstring nightmare from 2 years ago can be heavily attributed to this hip issue, where uneven pelvis causes hip impingement and tight hip flexor, which turns off glutes. I’ve been doing a lot of glute activation exercises, but I feel like it’s only 60% active (left side only; right side seems fine)

I have good flexibility in static sense when stretching, but I think poor alignment of my bones are messing up my dynamic mobility and causes abnormal muscle tones (tight on the front, weak on the glutes)

Thank you.

[kwave]

Does anyone know of any good chiropractor/physical therapist near Los Angeles area that have a lot of experience with athletic population? Someone that knows how to optimize alignment of the bones and length/tension balance of muscles and all that would minimize injury risk and maximize performance.

[AngelaCoon]

@kwave

Does anyone know of any good chiropractor/physical therapist near Los Angeles area that have a lot of experience with athletic population? Someone that knows how to optimize alignment of the bones and length/tension balance of muscles and all that would minimize injury risk and maximize performance.

Joe Horrigan Soft Tissue Center. If you are able to get an appointment there you will have scored big time. There are not too many better anywhere than Joe.

[kwave]

@Angela_Coon

Joe Horrigan Soft Tissue Center. If you are able to get an appointment there you will have scored big time. There are not too many better anywhere than Joe.

Thank you very much for the recommendation.