This is a great thread! 
I agree bold!
And sometimes getting the desired response becomes a trial and error process,as the desired response may vary ,being itself a mean to an end.
You are not wrong. Or at least this is what was to be discussed originally in this thread.
Whatever my perception,I do like your avatar!
In my collaboration with Dr Verkhoshansky on his upcoming 2nd Coaches Manual, prior to his death, we decided to replace the word plyometric with the proper term- reactive-elastic.
Pliometric, with an I, indicated, from Greek, increased measurement. No reference to speed. Thus, pliometric is the proper term to describe what is currently referred to as eccentric.
Plyometric, with a Y, was termed by Fred Wilt who was a friend of and had visited Dr Verkhoshansky and, with respect to Wilt, the word and use of plyometric has really muddled the sport training literature.
In the 2nd coaches manual it is also explained that concentric and eccentric are misused words in reference to sport science/muscle physiology.
So, those of you who purchase the 2nd manual, when it comes out, will see the following vernacular:
concentric is replaced by miometric, or overcoming
eccentric is replaced by pliometric, or yielding
isometric remains the same and is equivalent to sustaining and static
plyometric is replaced by reactive/elastic
and shock is exclusive to the most intensive forms of rapid muscle lengthening
Very informative,thank you.
I like the word vernacular,but most of all the word SHOCK.
In my experience, plyometrics can be either peripheral or central in application/adaptation, but also can be applied for both effects.
Other than smooth shifts one way or the other allowed for by the training process fine tuning the whole CFTS aims to, how do you manage to effectively separate the effects of plyometrics - as well as of any other training mean - from central to peripheral?
As you may know regardless of the athlete,regardless of the sport,regardless of the end goal,all of my training has been based on stimuli eliciting as pure and controlled as possible reflexive activity,which to me allows for both central and peripheral adaptation to the highest degree and at the fastest rate,hence implying the highest and fastest potential of change,with precisely this being one of the goals of adopting such extreme methodological choices.
The avatar is a charcol by jolliffe. If you believe the genetic thing he has the verandah over the eyes and it more than likely continues around the whole head.
Not speaking for No2, but for myself, the use of reactive/elastic means for either central or peripheral stimuli and subsequent adaptive response is managed via intensive or extensive methods of execution, respectively.
question re the use of weights during plyos.
at what point or would the use of weights change the focus from stretch reflex to strength force.
and would it be a good thing
Do you mean, by adding a dumbbell or mediball to the Plyro movement?
In which case, i would not - it’s increasing ground contact time. Unless your goal is for the initial Starting mechanics - ie, a squat throw into a dive. Then a mediball is ideal.
I would agree.
Its like CF said about Sprinting - 1 x 200m done in 19.xx is much more taxing on the CNS than 10 x 200’s done in 25sec. - where as 10 x 200’s done in 30sec would be largely PNS and not very taxing on the CNS.
The same principle holds true for reactive work/plyros
It was a general question, personally i do not believe in mixing weights and plyos. i start with boxes and have two assisting, one either side holding under elbow. the thread is started under strength training, i know a few who use 10+kg weight vests for their plyo work and some are highly accredited coaches.
Charlie and I had the chance opportunity to sit down with a former WC 100m runner (and her coach) quite a few years ago. She told us how she would run (as speed work) 10 x 100m at 11.1 seconds (hand times) with a walk back for recovery. While we were impressed with her stamina, we were not convinced these workouts were enough to create an adaptive response for maximum velocity (i.e. max v at 10.8 seconds for 100m FAT). Her weightlifting consisted of circuit-type weights, so they were not used as a central stimulus. But she told us she would do a total 500 jumps per workout.
Because the volume of jumps was so high, there wasn’t a specific peripheral conversion to max velocity (assuming ground contact times were much higher than 0.090 sec required at max v). However, that volume of jumps could create a general high-intensity “central” stimulus that would create a positive nervous system adaptation that could be transferred to her alactic abilities.
Thus, we reasoned that plyos (or jumps) have a plasticity that allows you to apply them for specific training for ground contact and reactive work, use them as a general loading mechanism for providing a CNS stimulus to be transfered and applied in another manner (high volume, high intensity), or be used as a general strength workout in a peripheral manner (i.e. high volumes, slightly lower intensity).
If your weight program doesn’t have a high intensity quality to it, I believe the jumps/plyos have to take a different form to make up for the lack of intensity in the weight program. The plyos are providing a general CNS stimulus that can take the place of the weight program, and may be more complimentary for a sprinter. Perhaps this is why there are numerous cases of long jumpers converting to world class 100m sprinters later in their career (i.e. Bruny Surin, Leroy Burrell, Kareem Street-Thompson), as well as Carl Lewis.
I have seen this plasticity of jump training applied with numerous athletes, particularly in winter training where outdoor weather and indoor facilities to do not allow for max velocity work, as well as a lack of sophistication with their weight programs.
Note I have been careful not to equate plyos with jump training. There is some overlap, but they are not exactly the same thing.
#2, I have seen the case of high volume jumps later having influence on alactic abilities. I used ut this summer and am trying to find out how to apply this work in better organized manner with speed and weight work.
I believe it would have to be worked into individual training blocks that allowed for appropriately gradual progressions (including transitions from softer surfaces to less-soft surfaces) and a careful stepping up of volume over time with strategically inserted regeneration blocks. Much of the success I have seen has been in a long-to-short arrangement where there is less direct competition for CNS energy. I could see the short-to-long approach + high volume plyos leading to significant CNS overload if not managed carefully.
Additionally, regeneration work on feet, lower legs and low back would be essential to this type of program to stave off the potential wear and tear. Significant extensive tempo work on soft grass (as active rest) would also have to be used to balance off the high intensity work created by the jumps.
If I remember Charlie’s words correctly, they were not interested in what you had to say anyway, No2… :rolleyes:
N2, by far the most interesting post in the thread.
With the term regeneration of feet etc, you mean also the use of EMS in pulsing mode, regular osteophatic check and so on?
I agree that some terminology in sports training may be not totally correct, but the meaning is worldwide accepted, and varying it just to be more " precise", do not know if it leads to just more confusion without adding anything.
James, thanks to your posting and training style, I found myself a fan of Pittsburgh U.!I had a chance to watch a couple of games on TV here in Italy.Good job, and good luck for next january bowl game.
Out of curiosity…during this month, from a physical perspective, what will you stress with the players?I suppose, recovery at least the first week would be paramount, but then?
James bowl game is about a week after our bowl game. The first week after the season we had no football practices, we did have two strength training sessions and one running session. Week two no football practices+4 lift and run sessions. Week 3 football practices + three strength training sessions.
Week 4 football practices+ two strength training sessions. Week 5 - game week…
Thanks, regarding the training, Coach Wannstedt resigned yesterday so I’m not certain how long I will continue to be employed here.
We are in fantastic physical condition, however.
yesterday we performed low volume power speed, explosive med ball, and weight trained earlier in the day and then performed alactic capacity sprints in the afternoon.
I had my non-special teams guys perform 450yds of total volume and my special teams guys performed 650 yds of total volume.
In no particular order we completed:
10yd x 10
15yd x 10
20yd x 10
- special teams 50yd x 4
I randomly selected sprint distances from the above grouping from one rep to the next and each set consisted of 5-9 repeats. 40sec rest between reps and 4 minutes between sets.
They absolutely killed it. Laughing and joking in between reps and sets.
Buddy did the same with his big guys and down linemen and they killed it as well.
In addition, last week we assessed our guys general organism strength via the bench and squat and it is clear that we are operating at near PR levels.
If Buddy and I are no longer here for 2011 the coaches who replace us are going to inherit a highly trained group of players.