Parallel Squats to a Box

Expert Discussion Strength Training
21

Just out of interest which top sprinters use/used box squatting?

God only knows? No exercise is essential.

You still haven’t explained why box squatting would be specifically better for sprinters.

It’s better for everyone… I explained here, you just didn’t read.

The same feel is meaningless. If the box is there you have no need to guess and most importantly a coach (who can’t feel what the athlete feels but is responsible for his/her wellbeing) or athlete can determine whether or not the load is too high. Not being able to properly decelerate before the box or touch the box would indicate a breakdown in the form and an immediate termination of the set. You can set the box to any height or even distance from the athlete. If you want an athlete to go to full squat depth set it at his full squat depth. But the coolest thing for me is that you can push the box back, thus forcing the athlete to box squat properly (westside style) in order to be able to touch it. If you totally dismiss powerlifter style squatting for athletes than you’ve lost a valuable tool.

I disagree that the same feeling is meaningless. I could give you near identical full depth squats, it’s not difficult. Not that it matters.

It’s not meaningless, but it’s certainly not as precise and modifyable as the box. If you want to squat the same way for the rest of your life then go ahead.

Why do sprinters need to squat more than one way? Why do we need to change the stresses?

New stimulus. Different and usually better adaptation (since the stimulus is new). Of course it’s not required. The more and more you do something the less annual improvement you can expect. Since you don’t have to squat one way why shouldn’t you play around with the stimulus?

Why must we reach proper depth every rep?

You don’t need to in order to make gains but with that argument why do any exercise with the same ROM. As I get tired doing lateral raises why don’t I just not lift my arms as high? Any breakdown in ROM or technique means you should terminate the set. The box is a tool to keep your form and ego in line. This is for safety.

Why is squatting Westside style important?

More load on the hips and glutes. Which I’m told are important muscles for sprinting. It’s also a nice way to give your knees a break. Nothing is irreplaceable.

I agree. Good squatting is a skill that is learnt and with practise becomes consistent in depth.

I’ll quote Dave Tate: This is the first item on the list because it’s the most important. When I speak to lifters on the phone I always ask if they’re sure their technique is on. Yeah, Dave, they always say, my technique is a thing of beauty!

Yeah, sure.

You know what? I’ve seen the best squatters in the world and have yet to see great technique. There’s one variable that’ll always throw if off. The variable is called weight! So you have great technique with 50% of your one rep max? Okay, what happens when it’s 100%?

We should all be working on technique with every set and every rep. It can always get better and will always need reinforcement. Have you gained weight? Well, guess what? Your technique will change! Lose weight? Get stronger? Get weaker? Injured? Tired? Time of day? Day of week? There are hundreds of things that can and will affect technique!

If you’re a beginner, then this is the most important time to start working on perfecting technique. This requires concentration and focus, so get your head out of your ass when you train and start thinking about your technique. Just about every sticking point I’ve seen can be attributed to a breakdown in technique! So why aren’t you spending time working on this?

… I’ve seem “maximal weights” listed in the some of Charlie’s manuals quite often.

22

"It’s better for everyone… I explained here, you just didn’t read.

Quote:

The same feel is meaningless. If the box is there you have no need to guess and most importantly a coach (who can’t feel what the athlete feels but is responsible for his/her wellbeing) or athlete can determine whether or not the load is too high. Not being able to properly decelerate before the box or touch the box would indicate a breakdown in the form and an immediate termination of the set. You can set the box to any height or even distance from the athlete. If you want an athlete to go to full squat depth set it at his full squat depth. But the coolest thing for me is that you can push the box back, thus forcing the athlete to box squat properly (westside style) in order to be able to touch it. If you totally dismiss powerlifter style squatting for athletes than you’ve lost a valuable tool."

I did read, it is a circular argument.

You should read your own posts through, you are contradicting yourself.

23

“New stimulus. Different and usually better adaptation (since the stimulus is new). Of course it’s not required. The more and more you do something the less annual improvement you can expect. Since you don’t have to squat one way why shouldn’t you play around with the stimulus?”

Why squat differently if you don’t need to? This has been mentioned numerous times on the board before, Sprinters have a variety of stimuli apart from limit strength exercises, so variation within limit exercises is not vital, example Ben.

24

"I’ll quote Dave Tate: This is the first item on the list because it’s the most important. When I speak to lifters on the phone I always ask if they’re sure their technique is on. Yeah, Dave, they always say, my technique is a thing of beauty!

Yeah, sure.

You know what? I’ve seen the best squatters in the world and have yet to see great technique. There’s one variable that’ll always throw if off. The variable is called weight! So you have great technique with 50% of your one rep max? Okay, what happens when it’s 100%?

We should all be working on technique … I’ve seem “maximal weights” listed in the some of Charlie’s manuals quite often."

You are just missing the point of limit exercises in a sprinters program. Charlie has argued that 1RMs should not be used in a sprinters program, and presumably not 100% 2RM etc either, as there is no need to go to maximum for reasons I have already tried to convey, without success.

25

“More load on the hips and glutes. Which I’m told are important muscles for sprinting. It’s also a nice way to give your knees a break. Nothing is irreplaceable.”

Can you supply evidence that full squats are injurious to the knees, (and evidence that they do not actually strenthen the joint and it’s structures).

26

To take your philosophy further, you are forgetting something. To have identical ROM on every repetition, you would have to have the feet exactly the same distance apart, and the bar in exactly the same position on the back.

27

The same feel is meaningless. If the box is there you have no need to guess and most importantly a coach (who can’t feel what the athlete feels but is responsible for his/her wellbeing) or athlete can determine whether or not the load is too high. Not being able to properly decelerate before the box or touch the box would indicate a breakdown in the form and an immediate termination of the set. You can set the box to any height or even distance from the athlete. If you want an athlete to go to full squat depth set it at his full squat depth. But the coolest thing for me is that you can push the box back, thus forcing the athlete to box squat properly (westside style) in order to be able to touch it. If you totally dismiss powerlifter style squatting for athletes than you’ve lost a valuable tool."

I will translate.

  1. Going by “feel” can be inconsistent, the box is always the same.
  2. In order to make “feel” a viable factor one needs to squat the same way every time. Squatting differently provides new stimulus which you can tailor to the needs of your athlete. Not every athlete needs what olympic-style squatting has to offer or is built to do it well. “Feel” also tends to go out the window under heavy load/fatigue. Not every athlete will need/want to squat the same way throughout their entire career.
  3. The box gives a sensory cue to when proper depth is reached no matter how you squat or who is squatting. The box can be altered to the needs and squatting style of the athlete.
  4. Powerlifter style squatting provides a stimulus that may very well suit your needs. Don’t dismiss it or the box simply because it is not widely used.

Why squat differently if you don’t need to? This has been mentioned numerous times on the board before, Sprinters have a variety of stimuli apart from limit strength exercises, so variation within limit exercises is not vital, example Ben.

Variation of stimuli isn’t vital. That is true. But just because something isn’t necessary doens’t mean it won’t have a positive impact on your athlete. Also your example of Ben. Ben is Ben, not you or anyone else. Don’t look at his program for the ultimate way. Charlie is a sprint coach, not a strength coach. I wouldn’t look to him for perfect weight room protocols (no offense meant). He admits that he would have done things differently with the knowledge he has know (example being the inclusion of behind the neck lat pulldowns in Ben’s program).

You are just missing the point of limit exercises in a sprinters program. Charlie has argued that 1RMs should not be used in a sprinters program, and presumably not 100% 2RM etc either, as there is no need to go to maximum for reasons I have already tried to convey, without success.

You’re not thinking about the reality of the weight room. Fatigue plays a major factor. 3RM, 4RM, 5RM… all the final reps are difficult and prone to breakdowns in form. But you say, an athlete would never endanger themselves by using more weight than they could safely handle. Bullshit. Eveyrone is hungry for improvement everywhere. Particularly “explosive personalities” like sprinters. Maybe after a major injury (whether weight related or not) they will be prone to being more cautious; but nothing is guaranteed.

Can you supply evidence that full squats are injurious to the knees, (and evidence that they do not actually strenthen the joint and it’s structures).

I never full squats were dangerous for the knees. I said they put more stress on them than the powerlifting style. This is unrefutable. Sometimes you want to move the stress around. I noticed you neglected to refute my point that powerlifting style squats put the most stress on the muscles most important for sprinting.

To take your philosophy further, you are forgetting something. To have identical ROM on every repetition, you would have to have the feet exactly the same distance apart, and the bar in exactly the same position on the back.

The bar position and feet don’t change during a set like the depth will. I actually do position my feet on lines when I squat. And I have three stances. Close, medium, and wide. This isn’t necessary but it helps me setup mentally for the squatting. You can also move stress around by changing stances and bar positions.

In the whole scope of things exercise selection is the least important variable. But that’s no excuse for not having an open-mind or thinking about how and why you do certain exercises.

28

“In the whole scope of things exercise selection is the least important variable. But that’s no excuse for not having an open-mind or thinking about how and why you do certain exercises.”

So we agree. But I am not the one who is saying that you must prefer one exercise over another, you are (or at least you did earlier). I just questioned that the box squat (or this version of the box squat) is the best method for sprinters, which you seemed to be claiming. I am not claiming that full squatting is the only/best way of squatting for a sprinter.

You would prefer box squats because of the assumption that regulating depth this way is beneficial, and they are better for the knees, I would prefer full squats because of the reduced stress on the back, which, having strained before (not squatting) I would not want to go through again, and so is of greater importance to me. ( I have had bad a bad knee and a bad lower back strain, and the back was much worse to endure, although less severe an injury).

Are you being open minded? I am not sure because you seem to be saying that box squats are the best exercise for sprinters, and at the same time criticising me for arguing that full squatting is the best way (which I wasn’t anyway!!!).

29

There is not one way to box squat. Box squatting in this case means squatting in any way until your ass hits a box and then going back to standing. There is no best way for all sprinters. Only the best for the individual at the time. Sorry if I was confusing with any of my posts.

30

I should have directed you to this thread.

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=1025&page=1&pp=15

particularly DW’s post. “There has been an unfounded belief that deep squats are damaging to the knees … Deep squats also cause higher activation of hamstring and gluteal muscle groups,” which I wasn’t sure about, which was why I didn’t refute your point then.

And people’s concerns about partial squats in general, (see Dreschler for arguments against partial squats).

31

[i]There has been an unfounded belief that deep squats are damaging to the knees. Recent research suggests however that deep squats may be effective in strengthening knee ligaments. Deep squats allow a greater range for bar deceleration which again reduces articular stress.

THe hip angle is greatest at parallel and in conjunction with the greater loads (that the partial variation permit) this significantly increases the risk of lumbar injuries. Deep squats also cause higher activation of hamstring and gluteal muscle groups.

My feelings are that parial squats lead to ‘fractional’ squats as athletes decrease the ROM in order to prematurely increase loads. Going through the full range of movement removes this problem and increases athletes’ confidence under heavy loads.

Deep squatting does however require a degree of flexibility and appropriate footwear. DW[/i]

The overloading problem due to decreased ROM is so true. You see it in every exercise ever performed in the gym - ego driven idiots, and athletes being driven more by competitive edge than ego places these two types into similar injury potential positions.

Its quad dominat nature of the squat in the first palce means that any object that reduces the depth of the squat to anything other that full depth (not that anything less than full doesn’t have benifits) means there will be more total stress on the quads than hip musculature. This invariably means an increased vol of work over time to prevent or correct any imbalance from reduced depth squatting that may/has occurred.

As most athletes that involve some form of running in their sport (not just sprinters) benifit mostly from an improved balance between anterior and posterior leg strength and development, it would seem that box squats and variations of would have limited use in any serious sport training program?

DW makes also a good piont about alterior equipment to help regulate depth if that is indeed a better option than actually learning how to squat consistently and most importantly safetly under any load.

From a motorlearning perspective the use of any external device, such as the box in squatting and the coach guiding the arms of the child learning to throw, have a limit if not early learning/introduction to a skill slant on them. Someone made the point earlier that the box touching the butt its about ‘feel’. Marion Jones returning to her best technique is also about ‘feel’, but not of the tactile nature of the box sqaut but rather the internal understanding and ‘feel’ (bettter described as body awareness) she observes while running. External ques have limited transferable imput potential, kinesthetic awareness will have infinite imput throughout the career of any athlete no matter what the sport.

Just a side note -does anyone use a box 6 inch box for deep squats or is it safe to presume most if not all boxes used by forum members induce the partial squat?

32

How many athletes have you ever seen with adequete hamstring development?

33

That is very much my point. I think age-old paradigms about the squat (albeit uninformed or uneducated), still exist and unfortunatley are still be used to justify suboptimal training programs. At least that is the case here in Australia with a number of our so called professional S&C coaches in our national league sports as i’m sure it is everywhere else in the world. The whole box squat argument is obviously a personal issue and taste with many fors and againsts, amd individual ideas.
At the end of the day if it makes for an efficacious training effect and does not produce injuries then it use justifies itself. In the long run any poor training technique will be found out.

34

I wouldn’t say a fullsquat is quad dominant, it depends on how you do it.

35

For sure the more torque you create about the hips by changing technique, the less quad dominant it becomes.

As a very general working example, which is obviously not feasible for most training athletes, if you have not done any leg work an extended period of time and then squat - odds on it will be the quads that are most sore. Same time off then deadlift for eg, odds on it will be hammies/glutes that are most sore. This simple test, which obviously has many variables that may effect the outcome, is generally reasonably accrurate in suggesting what muscle are stressed the most during a particular exercise.

36

hmm not for me, I mostly feel it in my VMO, gluted and hams, plus some spinal erector :slight_smile:

Only frontsquats tax the quads more, but even then my hams and glutes get sore.

everyone is different.

37

Naki if I return to squatting (full) after a layoff I have zero quad soreness!
Hamstrings very much so though!

38

Soreness is a result of accumulation of volume… not just intensity.

39

When I squat, I tend to drop quite fast until I get near the bottom, which could help explain a lack of eccentric work done by the quads. I do feel my quads working in about the quarter squat position only of the concentric part. This is probably why I don’t feel any soreness there, while they are working hard.

40

The point was that if you’re sprinting and performing hamstring specific exercises and drills the hamstrings are much more likely to get sore than the muscles you aren’t using as much. The squat could just be the little push your hamstrings need to get sore… even if it is a quad dominant exercise.