If you say so…
Ok man…ask Charlie or Pfaff, they’d agree with you for sure.
I don’t care what you call it, the method works more then pure S2L. There are many coaches/athletes on this forum following a pure S2L and there athletes suck ,mainly because they don’t have Charlie skills.
No one questions the success…just the terms… strength is max lift,throws, max acceleration…
Works more?depend on the athlete…I had one athlete who digged himself into a hole using L to S, repeat 300 and so, and got very fast, constant and motivated ina s to l…others do the opposite…Individualization is the key…
On average, the faster the athlete, the better he responds to StL…just my experience with my athletes and the many coaches I personally know or I’m in contact with.
If I should marry a philosophy I’d say a concurrent one, but again sometimes is just a matter of giving a meaning to a word.
Typical italian training ( see my thread of some years ago), can hardly be classified Lto S, and not for sure StoL…however, it is something I no longer use, and despite national federation pressure, half of the ideal European Championships relay team is " converted" to a Sto L philosophy (in my book, both concurrent)
You can use tempo 300 in both setups.
I guess athletes such as, Powell, Gay, Bolt, and Rodgers aren’t fast enough to count towards L2S. BTW, most coaches who use L2S do a poor job setting up the overall program - poor lifting, god loads of intensive tempo, and usually no short speed work.
Here we go again with defining things: according to Charlie, Bolt and Powell are StL…according to me concurrent, according to you LtoS:)
I don’t understand what’s the big deal, if someone does short speed work from day 1 - why is it S2L?
What would you say the problem is with their pure S2L programs?
Warm up
2x20m accels
3x250m
Man, that last 250 is always brutal. Went 29.9, 29.7 then 31s. I dont think I hit the first one hard enough and then push a little harder with less in the tank on the second. Understandable given I’ve got to get through all three. At max I’d say I could run a 29.4-5. My goal is to hit 28.9s before I chop the distance down to 230m.
3x10 squats @ 245
4x12 weighted hip thrust @ 135
3x10 Bench
I’m curious to hear this answer as well.
HaHa, you already know the problems that most athletes have following a pure S2L without a good coach on site.
There are some common problems and mistakes that people seem to make when trying to do pure S-L and some of those I’ve made myself (including but not limited to poor fitness, limited running volume in upright positions and suboptimal technique). I was just curious to hear your take on where people go wrong to see how it compared with my views and if maybe you had thought of or noticed things that I missed.
No problem, I wasn’t trying to be an ass. I’ll post my thoughts when I get home.
below avg fitness and suboptimal technique are problems I definitely have.
Problems I have with the S2L program: Before I get started I would like everyone to know that I am not bashing the S2L program because the past few years it has worked well for myself and other athletes that I know.
1: Unless you are getting very good therapy, you will get injured at some point. My thinking behind this is from the long periods of speed/high intensity elements – it takes a toll on the body over time.
2: As a lower level sprinter I think it’s important to get more upright running into the program. Most lower level athletes who follow pure S2L program are great 30m sprinters but suck the last 30m of the 100 or can’t run decent 200’s.
3: Lack of fitness, unless you live in warm weather it’s impossible to perform the necessary amount of tempo work to develop proper general fitness. I like treadmill and bike workouts but nothing beats running!!!
4: I think if you are working with lower level or NCAA sprinters it’s very difficult to prepare them for a college season on a pure S2L program. Even if you look at NCAA programs who follow something similar to a S2L there’s still plenty of longer work into the program from day 1.
5: If you don’t have a coach like Charlie Francis on site, I think your results will suffer big time. When doing speed change and finishing drills it’s important to have a good coach on site, otherwise I think the athlete could be wasting time (technical aspects) and probably should be using Int tempo/CSW.
6: Going back to the general fitness theme, I think most lower level sprinters would benefit more by following a L2S or MVP style of training there first 3-4 years then going towards S2L later in there post collegiate careers.
7: Last let’s not over think this, look at most of the success sprinters at the NCAA level (D1-NAIA) are they doing S2L?? NO… We all want to copy the elite athletes maybe we should take a page from successful D3 or NAIA programs – they are the smart one’s because they are doing more with a lot less (talent, funding, facilities etc).
Just named a few, I probably have 3-5 more to add to the list.
You going L2S there RB?
CF would call it S2L, but it’s more L2S.
Good post and good points.
Do you think the relatively higher intensity of most S-L programs is a greater injury risk than the higher volumes that often accompany L-S programs or those programs that include more longer runs?
One confound for #7 however is coaching which most members here, and elsewhere, who have failed to see great success using S-L plans dont have. I can also see a team environment, which is present in the d3 programs, NAIA programs, MVP group, etc. having a significant impact on the effectiveness of programs that include more longer work (increasing motivation and so forth to get through hard workouts or longer runs).
Do you think more fitness/SE capacity/etc from the long running has an effect on the capacity to handle (in terms of recovery and performance in the races) a higher meet volume (# of meets and # of races per meet)? I get the impression that a lot of schools will run people in a ton of events. Maybe this is a way to get more high intensity SE than would otherwise be accomplished by S-L where you might get more high quality SE in training over the course of the year but less in meets (where the speeds will be higher).
Syrus- sorry to jack your log. We can move this if you like.
1: I think for athletes at our level who start training late Aug or early Sept - with all the short sprints in spikes, speed change drills, 60’s, heavy weights etc takes it toll on the body. We are talking about 18 weeks of fall prep follow by indoor and outdoor season, this is a long time of doing tons of high intensity work and even with decent therapy you will have some type of injury. I think if the L2S program is setup correctly and not doing dumb shit like 16x200 twice a week etc the athlete will stay healthy, even if there’s periods of higher volume, I still like the odds of the L2S athlete staying healthy. Don’t worry about the “so call” lack of speed work because if the strength program is good and there’s sled-hills-starts and plenty of races the athlete will be fine. Remember at the NCAA level there are many races to get high quality speed work in.
2: Yes I do agree that training groups helps with motivation etc, but if you have hard working athletes and the coach assign times to the workouts most likely the athlete will hit those times. For example, in the early weeks of training those 200-300’s workouts were tough but I knew I had to hit the times. Once again it comes down to having a decent training setup, if you are having a 11.0 sprinter doing 10x300 in 46 with 4mins you may be asking for trouble even with a training group vs having him do 4x300 47 with 6-7mins rest manageable with or without a group.
3: I may be wrong but I do think the longer sprinters 200-300m does play a role in allowing the athlete to handle more in terms of race volume etc. Maybe it’s better to get the high intensity work from the meets anyways, because like FOG mention before how fast are you really sprinting in workouts anyways? The lower intensity or sub-max workouts would allow you to work on other elements of your race plan (relaxation which is lacking from most lower level sprinters etc). I also think by going easier in workouts you are lessening your chances of injuries, if you gonna get injured at least let it be on race day.
putting injury aside, wouldnt lots of high int. work over the year be more productive when trying to get faster in general.