I just have another question regarding this. If this guarantees fat loss, then flip it around and an athlete seeking hypertrophy. Would they need to increase their calorie intake to put on the mass? and how can they ensure they don’t put on fat? Or is it inevitable that when bulking up some fat will be put on?
Ok, if you prefer, muscle fibres swell and fat cells shrink. Actually, you CAN gain muscle fibres through fibre splitting, but that’s another arguement.
Fat is inevitable with any weight gain (except maybe water weight). Again, it is about proportions. If you are training a ton and you are just barely going over maintenance and that is mostly protein (and your endocrine profile is good, genetics are good, etc.) then that mass will likely mostly be muscle (or some sort of LBM). On the flip side, if you are the same athlete, if you are eating say 1000 calories over maintenance (for your activity level), then you will be gaining a substantial amount of fat.
You may even increase muscle while decrease bf %, but that doesn’t mean you didn’t gain fat. If you gain a substantially greater amount of muscle than you gain in fat, then the overall % will go down despite the absolute amount going up.
No way in hell. If you are 170lbs for example and have 12% bodyfat, you are carrying about 20lbs of fat. You would have to lose nearly 10lbs of pure fat (not just water weight) to get to 5%. You may lose a lot of weight, but you are not going to drop that much pure fat that fast. Actually, counting for water weight (which you would probably lose a significant amount because of glycogen), you’re talking well over 10lbs, most likely.
Maris–if you only ate 800 calories your activity (physical and mental) would have to be nearly 0. Most of these studies have people in the lab 24/7 just for their own safety. 50% of your maintenance if probably well over 1000 calories and the people in those studies had nearly 0 physical activity (except for some walking like going to the bathroom).
Yeah I get you. What is interesting from reading this is that it seems more tricky to estimate your calorie intake when putting on weight than when losing it! You could probably judge the calorie deficit you can get away with by how you are generally feeling and coping with the training (yet as I’m not having to train right now, I don’t need to worry about that). However, when putting muscle on, you need to be far more careful in order to not gain the fat. Despite how that post came across, I do understand the concept that fat can be gained alongside muscle, which can still result in a lower proportionate body fat level.
How big are the athletes? What kind of supplements are they using?
That kind of changes things compared to the rest of the pop. I wouldn’t compare say a pro football player (hmm say David Boston) to a sprinter in terms of caloric intake. I am pretty sure if most people under 170-180lbs started to eat 5000 calories a day they would not be the leanest on the planet.
Actually there is a point in a caloric deficit where hunger becomes minimal, not to mention when you get used to a ketogenic diet (could take days or longer) energy levels are not as bad.
I understand the second point about the ketogenic diet I think (the body is better able to metabolise fat???). Can you elaborate on what you mean about the point in a calorific deficit where hunger becomes minimal please?
Basically you are starving yourself, so after a certain point your body releases hormones to surpress the hunger (think of preparing for death). This does not happen acutely. BTW I am speaking about extreme caloric restriction vs less extreme caloric restriction and not in obese people (caloric deficit is correlated with amount of hunger moreso in the obese than the lean).
I mentioned the ketogenic diet because you are not getting many carbs, not because of any fat metabolism reason. Most people who go from high carb to low (or no) carb diets feel like crap for a few days, at least.
So basically, the hunger sensation subsides through time? Are you saying it subsides better with harsher calorie restriction? And just to clarify that cutting calories doesnt make the lean feel so hungry as it does to obese people? Yeah, I would imagine you wouldn’t feel great cutting out carbs as the brain has to rely on glucose right?? But I would also guess the body adapts, and the state of ‘crapness’ subsides??
Hunger is probably the least of your worries if you are restricting calories that much. I am not sure you realize how few 800 calories is–it would be severe starvation. Heck, check some studies on ramadan fasting. They have more automobile and related accidents when in the fasting state, and they only fast during the daylight!
Maris, why don’t you just use more normal approaches? Use a slight deficit or increase your low intensity work a bit and do it slowly. Crash dieting (essentially what we are discussing at this point) isn’t a great idea for performance nor is it necessarily the healthy way to go about things, especially if you are not willing to make lifestyle changes.
And to clarify what I said–I did not say the lean don’t feel hungry (or even feel less hungry) with calorie restriction. I said that in the obese, how much hunger you feel correlates more to caloric deficit while in the lean it has not been shown to correlate significantly (meaning, you could have a variety of deficits each producing a different hunger response–ie 200 calorie deficit could create more hunger than a 400 calorie deficit under certain conditions).
I am willing to make lifestyle changes. I just figure that at the moment I can try something fairly severe as I don’t have to worry about training. I am aware how low 800kcal/day is, and I doubt I would go that low. I have done 1500kcal/day whilst training and that was very hard! I would go back to something more ‘normal’ whn I start back training. I also have got fed up with waiting, cos I have been gradually losing weight for so long, I just want to get to the finish line now-and for reasons I already outlined, this seems like a good time. I understand what you mean about the correlation between hunger a calorie deprivation now. By the way, I will steer clear of the roads over the next couple of weeks 
LOL
Don’t do anything severe before you stat training or you’ll be digging a hole for yourself which will limit your training perhaps for months.
A sound program will build up your capacity to handle the type of high-intensity work you need to lean out as you go.
perhaps an idea, if just loosing bodyfat is your aim,
drop the weight gain materials - dairy, drinks other that water, high energy fruit
up the salad and veg
then, do 30min training sessions with the HR at 80-85% of max (continious, non stop efforts). you might try either;
1-just running?
2- run for 5min cycle for 5min etc
3 - any various exercise that gets the HR up and keeps it up
you want fluid change overs between exercises, ie, you dont want the HR dropping to say 140 more than say once. 4-6wks of that, the body turns from a carb eating machine to a fat eating machine - and the fat strips off. ie, the body would rather eat Fat for energy instead of carbs. Once per fortnight, a 1hr or so session will sure as kick things along.
I would still keep total calories to around 1500-1700 per day, just keep the mass gainers off and certainly keep all Simple Carbs away (ie, change white rice to brown)
Playing chess looks like it leans you out as well!
Firstly guys, wanna say thanks for all the feedback this is getting. Boldwarrior, am I ok to eat the brown rice though? Because I do like rice and it is probably the only starchy food I really would struggle without. I will try that routine whilst I am on my official training break as it is not going to result in me turning upto training tired etc… I’ll give it a go. Thanks again!
it can get rather brutal… thats what happens when you eat only 500calories 
so long as you keep count of how much your eating! eat 200calories of it with other stuff would be fine, eat a bucket load… :eek:
i don’t get it??
ok cool. just have it with say salad and lean poultry or white fish??