Modified 5x5 Program --- duxx's template

I have posted this program on James Smith’s website, when explaining something about fatigue accumulation etc… blah, blah, blah (See Single vs. Dual factor models thread)
I am thinking it is a good template for mediocre lifter willing to improve his 2-3main lifts – strenght.
Here it is:

I think it can be used-implemented into Tier system as well, for ME Tier1. What do you guys think?

BTW, I am just trying Novice Starr/Pendlay 5x5 method.

How would you combine it with a sprint program?

How often would this workout be done (once a week)?

Pretty damn easy :slight_smile: !!! If you want under a CF approach (accumulation, 3+1+3 ME, maintenance), then it would be: (using conjugated approach (core - strenght, auxilary RE-SE)

Week Template:
Auxilary work

Dead Lift
Pull Ups
Auxilary Work

Auxilary work

Accumulation Phase: will coincide with Mentioned Accumulation phase 1 for core lifts (maybe use 8reps instead of 5 in this phase?) and auxilary work in hypertrophy zone (SE-RE)

Max Effort 1: This phase would coincide with Intensification phase 1 phase, with the unload done 1-2 weeks prior. Auxilary work in RE zone

Unload: Switch to Accumulation phase 2 for 1-2 weeks. This should provide unload

Max Effor 2: Continue with Accumulation phase 2. After 2 weeks, don’t unload, switch to Intensification 1x1 phase for the last week (hit 1RM or 3RM).

Maintenance: Keep the Charlie’s and Pioneer’s approach… Weight used = 3RM / 1.2; 3x2, 2x2, 2x1

*** Oh, yes, I forgot Cleans… damn! Use lower reps per sets (1-3), and incoroporate simmilar progression pattern. Cleans are done on Mon & Friday

*** If this is too much… then Wed can be “easy day”, no need for 5x5 on DL and Pull Ups, just build (ramping) to some easy 5 reps. Easy!!!

*** Please note that I DIDN’T TRYED THIS PROGRAMM! I am just playing around hehe trying to be creative and experiment with what I already know in hoping to learn new… :slight_smile:

Solid program though I would personally be careful as the loading increases that the total stresses are not too much especailly if including speed work.
Do you need to go to 1 reps in ‘Unload and intensification phase 2’?
Would you manipulate the volume and go to just 2 sessions p wk for the Intensification phases to maximise performance?

(Note to self … get snazzy graphs for my CNS posts)

Ahhhh… :eek: to much questions! Fergus I didn’t tryed it, so I don’t know how would I modify it for specific situations and paricular athletes…
To try to answer:

  • No, you don’t need to go to 1reps in Unload & Intensification Phase #2. You can switch from 3x3 Platoue to 2x3 Ramping or something…
  • 2 sessions /w: you must know priorities at a given stage— is it speed or is it strenght? Act accordingly! As stated, you can use Wed as easy day (when SE is usually worked as I am familiar).
    thanks for asking!

(Note to myself … GET A LIFE YOU BASTARD!!!)

Do you have a link for novice 5x5 program? I am using an intermediate version, have not come across novice version so far.

I read in an interview that for novices GP makes them go for records regularly.

How would You define the “mediocre lifter” ?
Sorry, but English just isn’t my native tongue and I probably call Your “mediocre lifter” an intermediate trainee…? (If that is the case, why even bother with singles and triples ?)

Also - what happened to the heavy-light-medium set up ? I hope I just understood that wrong…and that might be the case, because I only know two guys (talking about intermediate or intermediate-advanced - don’t know a good word for that in Your language) whose body would probably survive 2x/week 5x5 (with the SAME weight and the SAME EXERCISEs) over the course of 5 weeks without injuries…just my experience so take it for what it’s worth.

That it’s for now, I have to get some sleep - Your dedication is amazing!

Sorry, I ment Intermediate 5x5 method… I am using it too!

According to Lon Kilgore (prof. Kilgore sent me a 1st and 6th chapter from his upcomming book “Practical Programming” which should aviable for 6 weeks)

  • Begginers should try to improve lifts (PBs) every workout — Daily Planning. When they start to stagnate they are considered Intermediate.
  • Intermediate Lifters should introduce more exercises and allow more advance planning due greater stress and more need for recovery — Weekly Planning. When they start to stagnate they are considered Advanced. Note that most of athletes never exhaust the benefits of intermediate planning
  • Advanced lifters should use Monthly planning due longer recovery needs (they are very close to their genetical limit)
  • Elites uses Annual Planning
    Here is the graph from the book “Practical Programming” by Long Kilgore et al:

According to the picture, this Template I have proposed is actually ADVANCED Planning for Advance lifters.

You ment mon: heavy, wed:light, fri:medium set up (in terms of intensity)? I think it is pretty useless if you rotate the exercises… This particular situation is explained in Joe Kenn’s book on Tier System…

Thanks for mentioning this Mike!
Ok… here is the solution:
(1.) As the Accumulation phase #1 starts, you use about 85-90% of your current 5RM for the Platoue Sets. This allows for slow build up over this period
(2.) If this is too much, then you can do 3sets instead of 5 — or mon:4 sets squat 3 sets bench, fri: 4sets bench 3sets squat
(3.) If this is also too much, then you can do mon: 3-5 sets of platoue squat, 3 sets of ramping for bench; fri: 3-5 sets of platoue bench, 3 sets of ramping for squat. Simmilar approach is explained in Advance Starr/Pendlay 5x5 Method. Mike, please note that in this model (Advanced Starr/Pendlay 5x5) squats are done every workout (except in wed when the weight is 10-20% less than in monday).This may be tolerable for lifters only, but for athletes for who the weightlifting is a “mean to an end, not an end to itself” it may be too much. So, be free to modify it to your own recovery and progress rate. Thanks fro bringing this issue up!

Thanks — I hope I won’t go mad! :slight_smile:

From an athletic consideration …
Why must elite athletes stagnate so much as they reach higher levels of performance lifting?

Because if I was an elite athlete looking at that graph I’d quit - it essentailly implies that improvement is not possible.

Do other issues not begin to come into play at this stage such as muscluar balancing, auxilary work etc.?

In terms of volume and intensity and I think it’s very useful (something really useless wouldn’t survive over all these years in the gyms).
You can have some kind of HLM set up via exercises (Incline instead of flat bench for instance or unilateral variations), but to have a light session in the middle of two heavier ones works just too good to throw it all over board and say “it’s pretty useless” IMHO. I wouldn’t trust any studies and even books in the first place anyway, but maybe I’m a bit biased towards this, because it works that good for everyone I know personally (who tried it) and me.

Have a nice weekend…

I don’t know if I get you here…
The issue is not in stagnation, but rather in the complexity of programming ---- beginers don’t need advanced periodization! That is the issue. When this stops working (they don’t need to stagnate for 4 months for you to swith to advanced planning) the you introduce higher level of planning! Read the damn papers I have sent you :mad: ( :smiley: )

Not possible??? everything is posible, but it is harder and slower to make gains when you lift 300kg bench compared when you lifted 75kg… Agree? You need to implement complex stuff to prosper!
Anyway, this picture is only a simplification, because no one knows where is “genetic potential”…
Again, look at the Complexity Line and Rate of Adaptation!

According to Lon Kilgore —

Hope this clears some stuff…

Mike, not to be exclusive, and don’t want to stick “good” or “bad” etiquets to various methods (because good or bad don’t exist — only optimal for particular athlete at given stage of his caree for reach predefined goals)
My opinion on HLM set up is based on Joe Kenns Tier System (The Coach’s Strenght Training Playbook) p. 66-69.
My interpretation of HLM (from the book) is that athlete do Cleans, Squat, Bench 5x5 each day, and that weight used is mon: 85%, wed: 65% fri: 75%
Instead of doing that it is far more better to do

Clean 5x5 @75%
Squat 3-4x5 @75%
Bench 2-3x3 @75%

Squat 5x5 @75%
Bench 3-4x5 @75%
Clean 2-3x3 @75%

Bench 5x5 @75%
Clean 3-4x5 @75%
Squat 2-3x3 @75%

This depends on your vision and definition of HLM!!
I would highly suggest to get the mentioned book, because it is great! (and cheap too)

I thought that the book meant that,
Clean 1 x 5 work up to 85%
Squat 5 x 5 75%
Bench 5 x 5 65%

Squat 1 x 5 work up to 85%
Bench 5 x 5 75%
Clean 5 x 5 65%

Bench 1 x 5 work up to 85%
Clean 5 x 5 75%
Squat 5 x 5 65%

This set up is more in line with Kenn’s thoughts on Tier 1 being the priority of the day and going “down” from there.

Now I do like your interpretation of having the 2-3 sets or 3-4 sets instead of all 5 sets every day. But I thought that that was how the %'s were working out in the book. Granted I could be wrong.

I have thinked this too Tim, but Kenn said that emphasis of the day (per Tier) is managed by Volume (number of sets)… he didn’t mentioned any percentage. But on pg. 70, udner Priority Emphasis he wrote “Intensity is the highest for this category during this session, as it relates to percentage of repetition maximum”.
So, you are right I guess!

Implementing Both Volume and Intensity Emphasis, it should look like this:

Clean 5 x 5 85%
Squat 3 x 5 75%
Bench 2 x 5 65%

Squat 5 x 5 85%
Bench 3 x 5 75%
Clean 2 x 5 65%

Bench 5 x 5 85%
Clean 3 x 5 75%
Squat 2 x 5 65%

Tim, I shoul re-read the book once again, because it is so dense in info… Anyway, you gave me couple of new ideas how to rotate the exercises in “my version” of 5x5, thanks!

i havnt tried low reps in like over 18 months! under 6 reps anyway. Perhaps i might give lower reps a bit of a go? From what i remember though, lower reps dont really suit me, or, as i dont get a pump from low reps, i dont like the feeling from low reps? i think its perhaps a pump thing? Higher reps, lower recoverys (30sec) and still heavy weights, from what i got from Arnold Sw. I know its more bodybuilding, but i certainly needed it from yrs of middle distance. Perhaps now that i loook like a sprinter, lower reps might be more suitable for me?
I like the structure Duxx, its simple, makes sence and is progressive.

Why 5x5 Gentlemen? Has anyone experienced superior results from such a protocol when integrated in a sprint/sport program?

Does it really allow the flexibility that a weights program for sprinting,or sport event other than power/olympic lifting per se necessarily need to serve its own purpose and priority (advancing the sprint/sport performance)?

Wouldn’t the same need of flexibility (if recognized and agreed upon at least to some extent) call for searching the very minimum amount of stimuli necessary to complement and advance performance,and starting to manipulate all the variables from there,rather than choosing an arbitrary set up and investing vain time trying to adapt it to an integrated model?

“…waiting in vain…” Bob Marley

Nothing to disagree with, pakewi!
In the training system there are priorities — everything else is here to bring up those priorioties — in sprintintg it is sprinting!
Anyway, I think that some generalized and flexibile strenght training programm should be followed/planned in advance (hence – accumulation, 3+1+3, maintain phases), especially if you are advanced athlete — both in the gym and in on the field/track, but with major goals in mind.

As you have stated — no need to follow the arbitrary and fixed training programm if it needs for too much volume/time to bring minimal results. You should “SEARCH” for the “…the very minimum amount of stimuli necessary to complement and advance performance,and starting to manipulate all the variables from there!”

Anyway, how would you “organize” strenght training in those mentioned phases, without doing fixed/aribtrary programm? “Listen to body” every time? Hmm… I think that some general & flexible plan must exist…

Thanks for contribution! Where were you all this time?

I was sitting at my desktop reading and thinking before,if ever,speaking again…it’s called “urban meditation” by some.

Why not starting to put a plan together from the very minimum,and proceed from there,guided by the advancing results,backed up by some experience and knowledge (and this site only offers plenty…!)?

As from this thread’s topic:lets say you want to use 5’s…why not to start from 1x5 or 2x5 instead of 5x5?
1x is a stimulus,2x you are doubling the stimuli…5x…who knows really? What does the body recognize really? What does it adapt to?

I realize I may sound abit speculative or cryptic…I apologize for that,I guess I am still in quite a meditative mode.
In the cuncurrent/on going “What’s CNS Fatigue really?” discussion thread I think Charlie,Lorien,No23,and James Colbert made very interesting points lately which may offer food for thought here too…

This may be appropriate for a begginer lifter… and maybe for intermediate lifter, but for advance… According to Lon Kilgore, advanced lifters should plan montlhy of achiveing new PBs — thus they (advanced) needs for more complex training. This is why I used Accumulation period to accumulate volume of given %age of 1RM. Note that 5x5 in 1st and 2nd week are done way below 5RMs. Look at the first post…

Anyway, if planning and gaining results in the gym distracts you from achiveing same on the track/field, and futher increase in the strenght levels demands for greater volume and time, and thus distracts for the track/field (due time lack and fatigue), and futher inprovements (which are basically small at this level) don’t contribute enough (compared to time/volume spent achiveing them) then you are maybe reached “enough” level of strenght, and futher strenght work should be “capped” — read maintened with minimal work. The empasis should be then put on something that brings result on the track/field!
What do you think pakewi?

[i]“Strenght training in non-strenght sports is a mean to an end, not an end to itself!”

— Unkown[/i]