Max strength Cycles- whats their TRUE role?

That wasn’t my point. My point was if the ultimate goal leads everything then why is there necessarily a need for the secondary element? In the original discussion that was speed leading strength for a sprinter. For your hypothetical of strength leading speed my point was that if the athlete was a powerlifter (in which case strength is the goal) and strength lead speed then why would you need speed.

Basically- if strength did in fact lead speed then would you have powerlifters sprint to improve their strength?

When using a L-S progression, would you still recommend using 2 three week strength blocks in phase one and one three week block in phase two?

I would say yes but it would also depend on the athlete, if they are during a l-s program because they cant handle tons on high intense work then I may decrease the amount of max strength work in the program.

post deleted due to bad info

Zatsiorsky states there are 3 ways to improve strength:

  1. Lift a maximal weight
  2. Lift a sub maximal weight to failure
  3. Lift a submaximal weight at maximal velocity

My understanding of the benefits of strength training is different from those being expressed on this thread. I’ve always thought the best way to raise the FV curve is to ‘attack’ it at different points. I.e. from fast to slow - sprinting, plometrics, med ball, OLs, squats/deadlifts. In reality however, limited CNS resources might limit an athlete to just the extremes…

Here’s a question I previously answered at EFS that illustrates my take on the matter regarding the significance of the stimulus and overload needed other than the competition exercise itself:

Question:
Maximum ground force application time could be as short as 0.04s, beginning at toe down and ending prior to mid stance. A slow sprinter might take double the time, but that still is around a 10th of a second.

This is exactly why we don’t do “explosive” lifts…they’re too slow. In fact, all lifts are too slow, so concentration on maximizing strength and letting the system take care of the isometric delivery rate seems to be the only rational way to go, at least from the strength side.

I can understand why we do Plyometric drills with the above statements. Why would anyone use dynamic effort strength training if they do not increase the speed in which mass specific force is translated in sprinting? It seems like a waste of time. What do you think?

My Response(edited):

If we consider sprinting we know that no other special exercise includes ground contact times as brief. In order to further the sprint/speed potential the neuromuscular apparatus must be overloaded, however.

Herein lies all of the debate.

For one this may include a predominance of sprinting and jumping/bounding exercise (RE Carl Lewis who performed very little weight training throughout his career). In this case, the generally specific jumping/bounding provides a neuromuscular overload that the sprint itself does not and thus serves as an effective mechanism to support speed improvement.

For another this may include a predominance of sprinting and weight training (RE Ben Johnson who performed very little jump training nor Olympic lifting but had an enormous squat). In this case, the squat exercise, while less specific than jumps and bounds, but meaningful for the sprinter due to the strengthening of the active musculature, provides a neuromuscular overload that the sprint itself does not and thus serves as an effective mechanism to support speed improvement.

The reality is that the peculiarities specific to each individual’s physiology dictates that a unique set of circumstances is required in order for THAT individual to attain sport mastery.

The only absolute is that any sportsman must practice their discipline in order to perfect its performance. Beyond that, we know that the practice of the discipline alone is not sufficient in order to further performance to the stage of high mastery.

That which is required, separate from the practice of the discipline itself, varies from individual to individual due to biological variability.

While the continuum of specificity exists in absolute terms once we identify a target of training, we must also acknowledge that the stimuli needed to further the results of less than high qualified athletes is wildly flexible.

The majority of western athletes are less than highly qualified in strength preparation due to the lack of a sound long term physical preparation model in this country. As a result, many coaches, regardless of qualification, are successfully assisting athletes in heightening their sport performance via wildly varying methods of training and its execution.

This is why one school may preach heavy lifting, another may preach the dynamic effort lifting of barbells via squatting, another may preach Olympic lifting, another may preach plyometric jump training, and any possible combination of the above, all as adjuncts to sprint work in order to improve speed.

Due to what I’ve previously explained we know that ALL OF IT WILL WORK…

FOR A FINITE AMOUNT OF TIME

So while I, speaking only for myself, may present a sound case or criticism of another’s work, I cannot deny that individual of the success that they’ve had with their athletes.

What I can do is explain the WHY and trust that I’ve inspired someone to closely scrutinize their efforts in favor of their athletes’ long term HEALTHY development and attainment of sport mastery.

Nice self promotion… what’s your point?

The significance of overload other than the sole practice of the competitive event needed in order support further improvements.

You can create overload simply by increasing the volumes of the primary activity. I still feel my post above is a better explanation.

Additionally, whilst I agree that improving CNS output is of primary importance, strength increases that results from hypertrophy also have value. For example, in Speed Trap CF comments on the size of Ben’s erector muscles - this undoubtably would improve his transmisson of force.

Yes, and I was never afraid to use higher rep numbers at times. I never liked to be bound to a limiting philosophy.
I also felt that there was an advantage to attacking the F/T curve from differing ends- with weights farther to the right of speed than plios, which compete more directly for the same CNS resources.

Yes, however, that leads to an unnecessarily more rapid approach towards accommodation to the stimulus and this is undesirable when the stimulus in question is the competition activity.

I didn’t realize this was a competition

No argument there.

Along these lines, it makes sense to me to keep the stresses as far apart as possible and when they approach each other, it is more likely to avoid this exact point. An example would be a move towards sub-max speed concomitant with an increase in plyometrics. This would be in a heavy training period and NOT during the taper unless weights were not emphasized (a la Lewis)

I think Charlie’s point is that they both facilitate each other. Strength improvements can facilitate certain parts of speed. (early accel and speed endurance although I don’t quite understand why speed endurance is improved. Charlie or others, could you talk about this a little bit more?) Also, sprinting/plyometric work seems to help facilitate strength improvement as well. If you just did the weightlifting portion of charlie’s program you would not see the same strength results without the sprinting. As far as other coaches that have noticed this, I can’t remember where I saw it(one of Verkhoshansky’s books maybe?) but plyometrics work the same way in that a concurrent use of weights and plyos increases strength more than either one alone. Hope this helps.

Plyos and weights complement SE via the mechanism of speed/strength reserve.

Fully agree. This logical approach is consistent across many different methodological approaches as well.

James - yes EVERYTHING is a competition.

Is “fast enough” related to the absolute outputs or to the proximity of the performance to the genetic limit (which obviously cannot be clearly discerned)?

If it is related to the absolute outputs, how does this change the role of strength training for females compared to males?

It is absolute output first and relative to genetic limit second.
The third aspect is the linear multiplier of volume. Because max speed is attained earlier in races by females, the role of SE over the 100m is greater. Their relatively higher speed training volume compensates for the lower output capacity, although perhaps not entirely.

This is flaw in understanding westside’s methodology that seems to run rampant. Westside’s primary use of dynamic effort work is to increase rate of force development and or one’s ability to fire all their motor units. It is not to improve the speed that someone presses a max weight with. I’m not saying this works, doesn’t work or whatever as I know this topic has been beat to death on this forum, I am simply stating what westside believes.