HIT programs put a lot of private trainers in business…I know the Bucs helped me through college since players were drafted for speed. Still, they won the superbowl without Dunn, Greene, and the “other” receiver from UF.
As for manufactured speed some are just better testers…with all of the SAT preps kids are doing they may be getting into colleges that are not right for them. Very artificial.
I think that this contention about manufactured speed is a joke. No it’s not football speed or game speed but as far as a testable skill, without much game footage, it’s all there is to go on. If manufactured means “trained” then fine it is but so what? If manufactured=will not necessarily translate into football skill or being able to perform skills of a reciever optimally then that is agreed upon also. After working at Parisi(or some combine center) an athlete performs a better time than at an earlier date, then it is better-end of discussion. Again will it translate automaticallly into being a better player, no but then that was never said. As mentioned before, in this day and age, numbers are a big part of evaluation and with a guy who is changing position it is crucial-at least without much actual performance to evaluate from that position. I completely understand the teaching for the test concept of people getting better at the test but to dismiss the results is to underestimate the person and the beauty of all this is there really is no arguing the results, they are what they are.
Sure, this is a reach for the Jags, but I personally don’t think it’s a huge reach because they might be able to find another position for him if reciever does not work out because of his size and athleticism.
As far as the post senior bowl workouts, not knowing what his best 40 was prior I can’t say for sure that he was faster at the combine(also being unaware of the s & c program at Ark.) but I would not at all be surprised(time to recover from long season, specialized attention to detail as far as technique, improved strength, and possibly better training all around that maybe he was not able to get in college, smaller coach athlete to coach ratio, etc.). I’d say it was quite likely that he was in fact faster at the combines than he was in early to mid January. Additionally, the Parisi group is known to utilize a number of CF’s methods which makes it even more likely that was an improvement in Jones’ speed(again not knowing what he did in college for s & c).
Also how does one test “quickness”? It makes sense that a guy 6’6" will appear slow. His movements won’t have a high frequency due to his long limb lengths.
If he ran 4.5, I’d be extremely impressed due to his poor leverage to accelerate. Guys that size(especially) just don’t accelerate that well, generally, to run those kind of times.
Yeah right…take it from someone with great SATs and mediocre grades, great standardized test scores mean nothing to colleges without an outstanding record of performance in the classroom.
Same thing with football; Fabian Washington had a much better 40 time than the CB’s drafted before him, but Antrelle Rolle and Carlos Rogers demonstrated that they could get it done in the big game year after year. Matt Jones not only put up great numbers at the combine but showed he could get it done in the big game (against Texas) and in the senior bowl.
Only time will tell. The one difference in Jones and other hyped players is that he doesn’t hype himself at all. I think he doesn’t care at all where a Brian Bosworth was on the total opposite end of the spectrum. What is preseason? August? I must add that the 225 pound bench press is totally irrelevent now.
no one’s claiming a prospect shouldn’t prepare for the combine, millions of dollars are at stake, of course they should. but preparing for the combine is not preparing for football. in regards to your senior bowl/parisi school before and after comment, do you really think he’s faster because he timed better? what kellyb is is saying, that in some cases, players can time better without actually getting any faster.
in addition, jones became a first round pick because of his impressive combine results…he should not have been the 21st pick of the draft. i’m not saying he won’t turn out to be a very good player, but this is a huge reach for the jaguars.
This is what I was getting at. Trust me, few people want to see Matt Jones succeed as much as I do but I’m keeping things in perspective and I’m afraid he won’t live up to expectations. He’s naturally a 4.65 guy who went to track camp for 2 months and timed under 4.4 mainly because of good coaching and his improved technique in the linear sprints. Because of that, people who haven’t seen him play for 4 years like I have, are expecting him to start the NFL season by lining up at wide receiver and blowing past double team coverage down the field against a corner and a safety catching touchdowns like Randy Moss on every play. That ain’t gonna happen. Expectations are too high.
If he doesn’t run that time then he’s not a first round pick that’s all there is to it and that time is not indicative of his game speed at the WR position.
If anyone disagrees perhaps we can place a wager on how many times Matt Jones lines up at WR and blows past a cornerback for a bomb down the field in this coming season??
You’re much more likely to see him as a tight end or h-back matched up against linebackers…with this matchup and maybe in goal line situations at WR he’s something to talk about.
I don’t understand this statement. Isn’t good coaching and improved technique a great way to improve efficiency? What the hell else are we doing if we’re not coaching well and improving someone’s technique. I’m not claiming to have any more insight into matt jones than kellyb, but i’ve heard for at least the past two years that he has run a solid 4.4-4.5 in the forty. Whether he has or not I just think that if the guy has improved on something doesn’t that show the potential for more improvement in other areas? If he trained for two months and didn’t improve I think people should be more surprised. Am I missing something?
Yes, you are missing the fact that these are obviously not Jacksonville Jaguar fans… 
how is taking .2 off a start simply by changing technique (body position, hand position, etc)going to make any difference in a football game. its great for improving combine numbers but really does nothing in the long term. now, if the parisi school or defranco had these guys for a few years, then its a different story. i give these guys all the credit in the world, they’re great at preparing players for the combine and if they had the players for a longer term they would probably get great results there as well. but lets look at it for what it is, they’re training people for 2 months for specific events at the combine, not for football games. changing the way they set up for the 40 is great for the combine and will improve your 40 time and draft status, but has this 2 month training period actually made these guys quicker or faster in game situations?
That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that if he improved, isn’t that all you can hope for? If you guys want to help guys in game situations become a football coach. BUT WHO SAID HIS FORTY TIME DROPPING WOULD MAKE HIM A BETTER FOOTBALL PLAYER? The guy improved and if everyone could find a way to drop .2 off of their forty, fantastic, but no one, I repeat no one, has said that this will make him a better football player. So you are saying that he dropped .2 off his run by improving his start position? .2 for his start position? Do you guys know how long .2 is? Whatever means he did use to drop .2, if mo greene got the same cues and dropped .2 off his 100m time do you want him to give the world record back because he used a different start? What other method should we use to measure whether someone has gotten faster if not their time in a run? It all sounds great where you’re living in never-neverland but in reality, scouts and coaches do the best they can to evaluate and develop talent and if there are flaws, that’s reality. But I guess you’re right. Next time when a prospect comes to guys and says I have to drop my forty and improve my strength, the coach should say, but this won’t help you play football better. What else is a speed and strength coach supposed to do but give the guy results? Give me a freakin’ break. How boring is your argument? What would you prefer to happen? Instead of criticizing the methods, why don’t you say what you would do instead? You have some magical formula for making fantastic football players? Where are your results?
I do apologize for my tone here, though. I just don’t understand what you want these coaches to do?
His best 10 time at the combine (hand start, electronic finish) was a 1.54. I don’t care who you are, for a football player, that’s fast-the average 10 time for corners in the combine was a 1.61.
If he was truly able to take .2 off his start just by learning new techniques, that would mean prior to the training, he would have been running a 1.74 10 yard time. That would have put him on par with defensive tackles that proceeded to run 40’s in the range of 4.9-5.0 at the combine. Yet, prior to his supposed manufactured .2 sec. gain on his start, he was able to outrun talented defensive backs from the SEC.
I’m sure they did change his start at Parisi and it did cut some time down for him. Maybe without that he runs a 4.45-4.50 instead of a 4.40. He’s still fast. He’s big. Can he play receiver in the NFL? Nobody knows yet. He’s got the physical tools. Only time will tell if he was worth the risk of taking him at 21.
On a side note, what have all these big-time rookies been doing since their pro-days? It seems like there is an abundance of muscle pulls by rookies through the first rounds of mini-camps this weekend. Must have thought all their work was done after the combine/pro-days.
the whole discussion started when kellyb stated he didn’t think jones was as fast as his 40 time because he said it was manufactured. i just explained what he meant by manufactured because someone asked. i don’t know why people are taking things so personally.
where did i ever criticize methods? i think people have a reading problem on this site. i more than once praised defranco and parisi and i never said people shouldn’t prepare for the combine.
what does mo’s start have to do with a football player’s 40 start in the combine. mo is training for the 100, football players are training for football, not their 40 start.
i specifically read on either elitefts q&a or in martin’s 40 book that they’ve had guys come in and take .1-.2 secs off guys 40 in the first day.
Because it sounds like you guys are saying, well ok he ran a fast 40 but that doesn’t mean he’s going to be a good pro. Most of these guys just need an opportunity. So you’re right I don’t think running a fast 40 is going to make him a great football player. But it got him into the 1st round and it got him drafted onto a team so he can prove what a football player he is or isn’t. Bottom line is the criticism is unfair, from you or Kellyb or whoever. Even if the speed is “manufactured” then at least he gets an opportunity to play. All I’m saying is that if you guys were the ones coaching matt jones then I’m sure you would be on the other side of the argument so your argument comes off (at least to me) as hypocritical. If you (or kellyb) had an athlete who dropped their 40 time or improved their vertical jump and people criticized their skill as being manufactured, I’m sure you’d be defending them. So to me, that is unfair. The depth of the NFL talent is such that you have to get your face out there before you get an opportunity. Do I think that terrance murphy is a better receiver than matt jones? Absolutely, but he wasn’t drafted in the first round. But if he ran a 4.1 40-yard dash and bench pressed 225 35-times then do you think he would go in the first round? Damn skippy. You do what you have to do to play.
fair enough. i don’t believe i criticized anyone. i said i thought the guy is a phenomenal athlete, i just don’t think he’s a first rounder.
I think your argument is more than fair. I just think that if any one of us was given the opportunity to get drafted in the first round because we could “manufacture” speed or strength then we all would take it. This argument is kind’ve like hating the rich kid because he drives a ferrari. Would you take the ferrari? I would and I’d drive the hell out of it, too.
its a no brainer. i’m all for preparing for the combine. these guy’s work their ass off and should do whatever they can to move up in the draft and get as much money as possible. i’m just looking at the player objectively but if i was his coach/agent, i’d be shoving that 40 time in everyone’s face so he’d be drafted higher.
Got ya. Like I said, i think your argument makes perfect sense but it’s the nature of the beast (of the NFL).
[QUOTE=Kellyb] He’s naturally a 4.65 guy who went to track camp for 2 months and timed under 4.4 mainly because of good coaching and his improved technique in the linear sprints.[ /QUOTE]
By “naturally” do you mean before college? If he had 4.65 speed in college than db’s in the SEC are much slower than I had originally believed. He certainly looked to be quite a bit faster than that to me. I guess naturally means untrained-I really don’t know where you are going with that one. If Jones dropped from a 4.65 to a 4.37/4.40 in under 2 months time, we should all be on such a program. With limited experience at reciever, this(his 40y time, vj, pro shuttle, etc.) certainly cannot be used to determine what his football or game speed is-which I would guess the only way to determine this is by watching him play the game. However, the limitations of using his 40y speed to determine what kind of player he is(specifically reciever) is a limitation of evaluting all players not just him-it might be a little more relevant to him given his lack of experience. Since he has limited time at reciever, all the scouts have to go on is workouts and senior bowl practice and play. If players are well coached before the combines should we handicap them in some way? I mean why do any of us bother coaching since we might be changing someone’s natural performance.
I don’t have extremely high expectations of his future but I believe there is a chance of his success, given his athletic tools. If he is successful, it might take some time.
If Parisi can shave two tenths of time off his 40 or any other player’s for that matter, should we limit our expecations of them to what we think their natural or baseline performances are?
You are right, improving his technique won’t improve his on field performance. If his speed is trained or manufactured then who cares? It is what it is and what it is very impressive, not to mention his other tests, vj, etc. The speed demonstrated by many, if not all of the guys in the combines, is also trained(some better than others! ). It seems as though the dispute is not really about Jones but rather the test itself and the weight of importance that is might carry with scouts. Agreed that are tremendous limitations to such a test, especially given his lack of experience at the projected position. This is one reason, of course, why the pros use so many different tests, interviews, individual workouts, etc. I certainly don’t know if this guy wil be a success in the NFL but whether his combine/40y speed is manufactured or trained or completely “natural” is totally irrelevant.
Matt Jones ran in the 4.6’s twice during his college career at Arkansas. Improve the start by a .1…the rest of the race by a .1 and change from grass to turf for an additional .1 and there you go.
You also have to consider that defenders chasing a quarterback have to give up a lot of space…then stop, turn, and chase. For that reason put Michael Vick at WR and he won’t look as fast and quick as he does as a QB. And I’m sure nobody is saying Jones plays faster then Michael Vick?? But they are the same speed on paper. From this comment I don’t see what the argument is:
So you’re right I don’t think running a fast 40 is going to make him a great football player. But it got him into the 1st round and it got him drafted onto a team so he can prove what a football player he is or isn’t. Bottom line is the criticism is unfair, from you or Kellyb or whoever. Even if the speed is “manufactured” then at least he gets an opportunity to play.
I’ve prepared players for combines and it’s all about the money and the draft and there’s nothing wrong with that…we’ve even joked about how useless most of it is. What I was arguing about is football playing ability.
My point goes back to the manufactured speed statement. Virtually everyone in the combines have manufactured(trained?) times(maybe not Clarett!) so the statement should apply to all the players and not just Jones. I don’t see his time as being any more manufactured or trained than anyone else’s-though I would say, as I’ve said before, that Parisi seems to be doing it very well, probably better than most-by the way, I have no connection to them. And if it is not “natural”, so what, that’s the kind of improvement that many of us would love to have with all of our athletes.
As far as changing techniques to improve his time, good for him but the limitation of heavily relying upon 40y times to evaluate football talent is a problem with the system and as long as it is a valued test, players will forever be trying to shave 10ths and even 100ths off their times-as you certainly know-that is the current system. If one day, the combine rules start to dictate technique guidelines then obviously changes will have to be made in the preparation of these guys but right now that is the system and I think his time is as legit as any other’s, trained or not. As far as surfaces changes many are experiencing the same changes-and so many describe that as a slow surface(Indy) anyway though I have always doubted that. I’d guess that most guys were just not used to recieving their accurate 40y times.
But for a guy 6’6" to run 4.37/4.4 given his long and less than favorable levers, it pretty impressive, trained or untrained.