I am not sure if I should start a new thread for this, but it is on literally the exact same topic as this one so I figured I would post it here.
Anyways, my main question is around timing of massages. I have never included massages as part of training until the last couple weeks. Right now my HI days are MWF, and I have been getting massages on Tuesday and Fridays. I know that Charlie recommended to get deeper massages on low intensity days, so I think optimally, massage on Tuesday/Saturday would be better, but my therapist doesn’t work Saturdays. I could do Tuesday and Sunday, but I thought it would be better to have the massages more spaced out over the week. I also think that in the grand scheme of things, actually getting the massage work done is probably more important than the timing of it. What do you guys think?
On other days, from what I have read here, contrast baths/showers should go on HI days, and pulsing EMS can go on these days, and likely low intensity days as well.
One other question, what is the consensus on epsom salt baths? When I searched, there was some concern that it lowered the muscle tone too much, so I wasn’t sure where the best place to put something like this would be?
Ideal vs Real at work in your situation! Since it appears you have the option for massage, make the best of it. Charlie recommended priority given following tempo runs on low days first. Try a week getting work on tue and thur following tempo work. Then try a week doing tue or thur and then saturday. See how you feel.
I found with high school aged kids massage before speed work was better than after tempo. They had higher quality sessions when I could work on them before. When Waldemar was asked about this, he felt because in kids and their growth, they face the muscle tightness issues and could be the result of the differences.
Somewhere in at least one of the products there was or has been how to priority recovery aids. One thing I wish to say more than anything is a little bit more often is better than a lot less frequently. What is ideal for one may not be so much for you. What I also know is the layering of therapies is very useful and seems to accelerate the value of each. Do I have solid scientific proof? No, but I can tell you this is routinely how I was taught to do things. Charlie and I got into multiple discussions as I have said before about therapy and how lazy some athletes were vs how motivated others were. For some it is all about the work. For those who wish to get ahead in my mind it is also about actively pursuing all methods you have control over to revitalize and prepare to come back and hit your training harder or at least as hard as you did the day and week before. Work gets all the press and recovery is not so interesting I guess?
Don’t forget the massages you get during training in off season will differ than when you begin to compete. Try and get whom ever is working with you to divide up more times and spread the value for you. Charlie rarely spent more than 15 minutes most of the time tops when he did routine massages. Sometimes we would do treatment before ( very little at that point) and then after to check and see what has happened. Ok,I get that is not realistic but saying it might allow you to create a solution for yourself. Loosen up with a hot and cold or begin with small 10 min warm ups day of training a few hours before your key session.
I do think getting a massage is more important most of the time than the timing of it providing the therapist is familiar with you.
I did contrast baths on all days all the time as advised by Charlie. If I was not loose how was I going to train? So was it wrong to do before training? I did contrast baths at times before and after training but his was mostly when I was doing a lot of work and needing to repeat large volumes of work and you can not just rely on massage. Charlie worked very hard and expected me and his athletes to do there part in preparing to max out on the benefits of what he could do for them with therapy.
I would not to do a salt bath before training and I would be more careful about doing it post tempo and much more likely to do it after HI days directly after or just before bed. Salts lowering muscle tone? Again might be very individual as how can all people have the same chemistry and therefore response?
You are on the right track. Continue to ask questions and over time you will learn more about what you need.
Rarely does one get optimal anything regarding training and regeneration until they achieve enough success that they are able to create ideal protocols. At some point in the beginning you are trying to find your way. If you want to jump into an Epson salt bath post tempo then you could argue this further removes lactates as would the tempo if done properly. ( providing tempo is having the desired effect and you are getting a proper flush from the work the day before). The last thing I ever wanted to do was to get hotter and jump into a bath after Big Circuit or 2 sets of 10x 100 or push up , sit up workout. Often I did a cool or cooler ( cold) shower if I could or contrast shower with warm water to tolerate cooler or cold.
Thanks very much for the replies Angela. You mentioned doing short 10 min warmups a few hours prior to the main session - I have done this before and I feel it usually makes a big difference if I am tight. If I have kept up with flexibility and am not so tight then it seems to have less of an effect. Do you think contrast showers would have a similar effect to this prior to a workout? When you did this would you end on hot?
Finally, some people think that recovery methods lose there value if used too frequently, what are your thoughts on this? If you were doing multiple contrast showers each day, did they still have the same effect at the end of your career as they did at the start?
When you are talking about high performance I think you will find that spreading work out works well. This general idea might apply to anyone not just athletes. In fact it was this principle that Charlie and I took to " our" post Seoul career . We took our experience from sport and his high level expertise and delivered it to those who might afford it. I have lots of people ask = " what are you training for". My stock answer = " Life". I want to keep up with my son and the adventures that I invite into my life. ( (I digress). But I am not telling you anything you have not discovered on your own am I? I know I go on and on about contrast baths and I do realize they are not for everyone but I felt it was something that really worked for me. I know Ben hated them but I also know he had to do them at times. I also know he had full access for Charlie before, during and after training in terms of massage and later Waldamar when Charlie had the funds to hire help. HOt and colds are done to end with cold. if you are doing them the right way this will be something you enjoy and look forward to.
I believe I had a real advantage on others due to my understanding of Charlie pushing active recovery. As I have said before so many people think it is all about the work. Its about the quality of work and the proper rest and understanding of recovery time between sets and the application of principles as it pertains to how work efffects our CNS. Not once ever in my life have I felt I have over done recovery. In fact this statement makes me laugh out loud. I do remember Marian shooing us out of her room at the Four Seasons because she was getting really sick of all the treatments but this was because she had so much going on day after day after day.
Charlie did do a hot and cold progression for someone once but this was a client and we were wanting to show them on paper how to accelerate recovery over time. Just curious… What would the alternative be to doing frequent recovery methods? If your program is progressively building in higher volumes and higher qualities of work then does recovery stay the same or does the recovery just accelerate your own bodies ability to handle more work over time? I thought the idea of active regeneration is really to shore up more energy and feel better so that you can go hit the training harder the next day and maybe with less effort and have more on reserve? In my experience people are really lazy when it comes to doing non glamourous work. Training is cool. Epson salts baths not so much. What ever … I dont care. you need to proove to your self . I didnt have tons of fights with my coach about this topic for nothing I tell you that.
Ange,as usual,thanks for posting your truly enlightening experiences as an athlete,human,and coach.
Contrast showers/baths are an extremely valuable training other than recovery tool. When done properly (alternating maximally tolerated cold and maximally tolerated hot) they provide what is instantaneously perceived as a life or death situation by the brain in an extremely safe and controllable manner. The body responds to such a stimulus maximally activating all its resources to engage the two opposing stimuli,successfully negotiate the suddenly changing environment,and secure its own survival. All this is done only managing sensory afference of information to the brain,with no CNS otput (motor efference from the brain) ,hence the greatest value recovery wise. Also,having no output costs,but only metabolic ones,provided these latter are properly addressed,such a stimuli can be very successfully applied daily,all of the time,as in Angela’s experience,and they may truly represent a simple,nevertheless key,training for life tool at its purest.I like to think of them as training of the highest quality. Keep doing them long enough and they willact and feel exactly like training,while creating and supporting precious adaptation processes in the organism.
I was thinking about this more kbm. I understand that it makes sense that doing recovery methods over time might feel like they lose their value but I know this is not true at least from what I have experienced. I wanted to mention a few things because it is important.
Over time you will get better at understanding how you want to do certain methods of recovery. YOu speak to people and you test it your self and you learn just by how you feel.
Some people don’t really want to think about this kind of recovery which is what I was getting at with Marion. It was my impression that she did not mind doing all the treatments etc but at a certain point she just wanted everyone out of her room so she could do what ever.
Charlie spoke often about Ben watching all the Jackie Chan movies day in and day out and he and others liked to hang out and not do much. This too can be a kind of active recovery in that doing nothing is pretty important for some athletes in contrast to the intensity of how they train.
I remember Al vermeil telling us that is was very difficult to get the athletes ( Chicago Bulls)to adhere to any protocals of anything recovery oriented once they left the training factilities.
TRack is different and individual sports are as well because you have to rely only on your self and therefor you need to look for all the tricks and places you might get ahead.
I guess if I did the hot and cold the same all the time it might lose it’s value but each time I have done it is different and the more I do certain things the more I tweak it so I get more out of it. I would say the tools I have used as an athlete were more useful the older I got ( more info is for sure better as is more experience) and I would also say those tools serve me very well now if and when I need them.
And my comment about lazy… well I always felt a lot of the sprinters I knew were just born relaxed. This was certainly not the case for me and I admired those who needed less active recovery but hey we are all different…;).
It is always interesting to hear what others say too so I hope my thoughts might invite others to say something on this as well.
For the sake of feedback from a diversity of people…
The more I train through the years, the more I realize that doing absolutely nothing (non-active recovery versus active) makes me feel like crap, and picking up a training session the next time is more difficult… (Which is why I enjoy double sessions too, even if the morning one is a pure warm up, with a quick stretch, drills, strides, and go home).
Easy biking home for 15’ after every single training has also helped me a lot, especially after lactic sessions on the track.
With some intense weight room sessions now during a very cold winter in Milan (and no chance to run fast on the track), muscle soreness and tightness goes wonderfully with what could be described as ‘contrast therapy’ (that you guys speak about), but with the aid of alternating sauna and cold baths. (so wonderful… and mentally ‘easier’ than switching the temperature yourself in a shower).
Mentally easier often only means there is no signal to adapt to and you are slipping into a restorative mode,and out of an adaptive one,which is what makes you feel good. But there may certainly be individual exceptions.
Pakewi, when speaking about this and adaptive mode of discomfort - do you conclusively think that every training session should not feel good, so as to adapt to something each time when seeking a meaningful purpose?
To go along this, I wanted to comment that the more I train, the more a realize that a ‘comfortable’ training (especially when speaking of ‘restorative’ tempo or long run training), has a deteriorating effect to the way I feel at the end. Perhaps this also justifies Charlie’s saying that tempo doesn’t have to/shouldn’t feel easy (so there’s some form of adaptation each time one does something - correct me if I’m inaccurate please).
I think this is something that the majority of people get wrong, and that ‘simply moving for the sake of moving’ is not enough, for whatever purpose, if one strives to continuously evolve through training.
With that being said, I agree with your comment above…
(Now I may read this tomorrow and disagree with myself, but at least I can have some feedback and thoughts on my today’s thought … =) )
Comfort zone is comfort zone,by definition NOTHING happens there. Too bad nothing happening is no good news,as we either move forward or backwards, in between is playground for tricks played by our minds.
Nevertheless we all keep showering,training,and living under comfortably warm water and half way turned knobs.
Thanks again Angela. Another thing I was thinking of is that I have heard some coaches state is that if you use too many recovery methods too often, then your body basically gets “worse” at recovering on its own. At elite levels I don’t think this would ever be something to worry about, because elite athletes don’t really have time to have sub-par training sessions because they weren’t recovered enough. But for developing athletes, I think it makes some amount of sense to limit some modalities at points in the year such as GPP, so that your body can deal with the fatigue on its own.
I also think that the amount and type of recovery modalities that should be used should be dependant on the athlete and sport and what type of training they are doing. Some amount of fatigue and even inflammation is necessary for certain adaptations, and so if some recovery method is going to decrease inflammation, then will you have gotten the most out of the training you were doing? In a sport like track where quality is such an important factor in training, and some of the metabolic and structural adaptations are often secondary to the neural adaptations, then recovery methods are probably well warranted so that you can feel the best for training as often as possible. But for some other sports I am not so sure.
Finally, one thing I have read from coaches who use the Omegawave with their athletes is that certain modalities are better/worse depending on the state the athlete is in, either sympathetic or parasympathetic dominance. Cold water is good for sympathetic overtone, and since the majority of speed/power athletes would be more likely sympathetically dominant, then contrast showers are probably a good recommendation to anyone. But other modalities such as sauna would not be as good of a choice.
i know at my school everyone thinks i’m crazy when contrasting but when i convince them to try it they fall in love (almost everyone here ices/cold water bathes and contrasting tends to be more comfortable and more effective for the recovery needed). almost all recovery aids used by the athletes are done in the facilities though and i think it’s because we like to have a clear division of student time and athlete time
Sympathetic overtone as you define is only an indication of where an individual may be along the adaptation phases spectrum. Per se it does not mean anything nor is enough for a training prescription. According to the reasoning above you would choose the recovery method to counterbalance a hypothetical inbalance,to correct something. It just does not work like that. If you add a factor in a process you have to take in consideration how that single added factor interplays with and influences all other factors which form the process at the time.
Every choice can be good or bad depending not upon a certain state,but on the direction you want to move the process into.
Beyond all the pseudo-science,in my experience contrast showers used in different hot/cold ratios,and with different durations,and frequencies of application provided results in areas ranging from performance to recovery,to fat loss,and even as a training tool by itself.
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2011 Jul;111(7):1287-95. Epub 2010 Dec 4.
Short term effects of various water immersions on recovery from exhaustive intermittent exercise.
Pournot H, Bieuzen F, Duffield R, Lepretre PM, Cozzolino C, Hausswirth C.
Source
Research Department, National Institute of Sport, Expertise and Performance, 11 avenue du Tremblay, 75012, Paris, France.
Abstract
In order to investigate the effectiveness of different techniques of water immersion recovery on maximal strength, power and the post-exercise inflammatory response in elite athletes, 41 highly trained (Football, Rugby, Volleyball) male subjects (age = 21.5 ± 4.6 years, mass = 73.1 ± 9.7 kg and height = 176.7 ± 9.7 cm) performed 20 min of exhaustive, intermittent exercise followed by a 15 min recovery intervention. The recovery intervention consisted of different water immersion techniques, including: temperate water immersion (36°C; TWI), cold water immersion (10°C; CWI), contrast water temperature (10-42°C; CWT) and a passive recovery (PAS). Performances during a maximal 30-s rowing test (P(30 s)), a maximal vertical counter-movement jump (CMJ) and a maximal isometric voluntary contraction (MVC) of the knee extensor muscles were measured at rest (Pre-exercise), immediately after the exercise (Post-exercise), 1 h after (Post 1 h) and 24 h later (Post 24 h). Leukocyte profile and venous blood markers of muscle damage (creatine kinase (CK) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH)) were also measured Pre-exercise, Post 1 h and Post 24 h. A significant time effect was observed to indicate a reduction in performance (Pre-exercise vs. Post-exercise) following the exercise bout in all conditions (P < 0.05). Indeed, at 1 h post exercise, a significant improvement in MVC and P(30 s) was respectively observed in the CWI and CWT groups compared to pre-exercise. Further, for the CWI group, this result was associated with a comparative blunting of the rise in total number of leucocytes at 1 h post and of plasma concentration of CK at 24 h post. The results indicate that the practice of cold water immersion and contrast water therapy are more effective immersion modalities to promote a faster acute recovery of maximal anaerobic performances (MVC and 30″ all-out respectively) after an intermittent exhaustive exercise. These results may be explained by the suppression of plasma concentrations of markers of inflammation and damage, suggesting reduced passive leakage from disrupted skeletal muscle, which may result in the increase in force production during ensuing bouts of exercise.
J Sci Med Sport. 2009 May;12(3):417-21. Epub 2008 Jun 11.
Effect of water immersion methods on post-exercise recovery from simulated team sport exercise.
Ingram J, Dawson B, Goodman C, Wallman K, Beilby J.
Source
The University of Western Australia, Human Movement and Exercise Science, Crawley, Western Australia 6009, Australia.
Abstract
This study aimed to compare the efficacy of hot/cold contrast water immersion (CWI), cold-water immersion (COLD) and no recovery treatment (control) as post-exercise recovery methods following exhaustive simulated team sports exercise. Repeated sprint ability, strength, muscle soreness and inflammatory markers were measured across the 48-h post-exercise period. Eleven male team-sport athletes completed three 3-day testing trials, each separated by 2 weeks. On day 1, baseline measures of performance (10 m x 20 m sprints and isometric strength of quadriceps, hamstrings and hip flexors) were recorded. Participants then performed 80 min of simulated team sports exercise followed by a 20-m shuttle run test to exhaustion. Upon completion of the exercise, and 24h later, participants performed one of the post-exercise recovery procedures for 15 min. At 48 h post-exercise, the performance tests were repeated. Blood samples and muscle soreness ratings were taken before and immediately after post-exercise, and at 24h and 48 h post-exercise. In comparison to the control and CWI treatments, COLD resulted in significantly lower (p<0.05) muscle soreness ratings, as well as in reduced decrements to isometric leg extension and flexion strength in the 48-h post-exercise period. COLD also facilitated a more rapid return to baseline repeated sprint performances. The only benefit of CWI over control was a significant reduction in muscle soreness 24h post-exercise. This study demonstrated that COLD following exhaustive simulated team sports exercise offers greater recovery benefits than CWI or control treatments.
Great post Ange and 2, 4 (especially The more I need a hot and cold the less I feel like doing it.) & 4 were the catalyst for me making a 2 cycle contrast my default morning shower after I read it. It was one of those mumble grumble yeah I Know really should things but now I wouldn’t change.
Overall, I think worrying about overusing recovery methods is a little like worrying about eating too many fruits and vegetables or doing too much flexbility work. Technically it’s possible, but for the vast majority of people it’s a non-issue.
