superb discussion guys. Pj’s stats are used with discretion. He acknowledges inconsistencies between the stat logs. Coach Mdd also obviously knows his stuff. His point about Powell’s posture on penultimate influencing angle of takeoff is well taken, apparent also from pix. It would be interesting to hear from Randy Huntington (Powell’s coach up to and including TokyoWC). But anyway it is this level of discussion which I suggest sets this CFforum apart from all others in the public domain.
While allergic to “Kats” I will take the complement.
As for the earlier discussion, the other point I forgot to mention is that if in fact Mike was stepping off line on his penult for the reason I suggest, it makes still more sense when you figure that along with going for greater TO angle he also needed to retain as much horizontal speed as possible thru the penult.
Were he to attempt the same idea of lowering by simply being lower over a more traditional inline penult, the deceleration / braking forces would have runied the jump assuming he was not injured in the attempt.
A friend once told me that the better athlete is the one who learns to/can “feather” the negative phase of each ground contact.
Mike and Randy simply built a better mouse trap and a custom fit one to boot!
Kras, slightly O/T but wonder if you (or others) might be able to help with a discussion that arose at childrens athletics meeting last night re HJ.
The skill level around here is low and it was suggested that children (10-13) should stick to scissors till they can jump X height before switching to Fosbury. This theory is based on an ex club competitor who did that and went on to win Commonwealth Gold. To add something to this discussion she then switched to triple jump. Her best jumps were HJ = 1.92 and TJ = 13.50
I used scissors as drills but never actually used it in competition. Especially in the last couple years of jumping we actually didn’t use scissors much, and when asked to I had a lot of trouble translating my (by then) accustomed technique into doing scissors. By that time I was jumping a foot higher than I was when I began, so it wasn’t a question of a reduced jumping ability.
however, the perenial state champion in MA while I was in high school always warmed up with scissors up to a certain height, whether in warmup or at very low heights in competition. She had a teammate who scissored exclusively and did not fosbury at all, and was reasonably good at it.
I’m not sure what exactly you are asking… this is my experience with scissors. I suppose they are good and useful up to certain heights- I am personally uncomfortable having my driving leg be straight but that is not really the point.
Oops yeah I wasn’t that clear. I think that they should learn Fosbury asap rather than have to learn another technique once they have shown potential. Agree? Disagree?
Any idea where I could get some idea what best progression is or is it a matter of personal opinion?
thats basically what I meant I think- I learned the fosbury right away, and while scissors were useful in drills, thats about as far as I would have wanted to take them. I would have been comfortable at any point doing them in competition, and I don’t really understand why you would program your body to jump one way when inevitably you’re going to have to reprogram it to do something else.
I think the progression is largely personalized- I have never really heard of an entire school of thought that says scissors before fosbury… not that i am hugely versed in these things. But what would be the point of NOT going straight to the real thing?
Because that is what X did and X won a CG gold 
Thanks.
Kajsa Bergqvist injury was indeed strange but I fail to see the reasons for your suspicions. Holm and Kluft do not even take any supplements. There is certainly nothing supernatural about Holm’s abilities, besides his obvious high jumping skill, in any way to justify such beliefs. He the ultra technician! A high jumping technique that has been fine tuned to perfection with the guidance of his father who has been Stefan’s coach during all the years since the day Stefan started high jumping as a small kid. It should be noted that Stefan’s father did not have any previous experience of jumping or high jumping in particular.
38" is not low! Stefan has stated that his VJ is less than 30"! I have to admit that it amazes me that the current world leading high jumper does not have a better VJ. Even if the correlation with a proper HJ is not high, you would think that better VJ ability still would help? Well, it speaks plenty of Stefans great HJ technique.
Well, Stefan has pointed this out several times - that kids do not learn how to flop properly because they do not start with the scissors. He started to jump in his own backyard with no access to safety mats and therefore was forced to use the scissors technique. It is quite obvious that scissors help the kid to focus on a forceful upward takeoff while the flop may lead to focus on the clearance position at the expense of the takeoff.
As I wrote, my belief is less and less. I respect your right to your opinion but I don’t share your views.
The tendon injury is HIGHLY Suspect.
I am very comfortable expressing my doubt as to the nature of its cause.
Some research on the subject should yield information on the tie between connective tissue laxity/degradation and its being induced by anabolics. Seek out some “weekend warrior” with knee or shoulder problems and ask them what the Doc told them when they wanted another, after they had received a long needle or two to the joint?
A 30" vert for someone that jumps that high is too big a disconnect (to my mind) from the meet results he gets. “Great HJ Technique” is a far smaller component of 7’ 8" high jumps when observed in someone that short of stature with only a 30" vert? Draping around a bar doesnt change the parabola that his C of M travels. Lacking a greater VJ, he is more dependent on horizontal speed and its conversion at plant and likely an even better candidate than his country woman to “blow something out”, than her tendon explosion on the non-jumping leg? while running in a straight line and at the relatively low amplitude of the 3rd? step of an approach.
As for Kluft, in all fairness I think that the record she is chasing isnt likely “clean” either.
This is all just one person’s opinion, thats all.
Now Santa and the Easter Bunny are coming over to my place later for some holiday cheer. All true believers are welcome to join us.
He also states that his SLJ is less than 3m. By “great HJ technique” I do not imply his bar clearance (which admittedly is superb) only but also run-up, take off and special eccentric strength / power at take off. As you realize, he is very dependent on horizontal speed and this is where his short (5’11.5") stature and corresponding light weight pay off as he has very little problem with injuries. (E.g. compare with Freitag.)
Exactly
By “great HJ technique” I do not imply his bar clearance (which admittedly is superb) only but also run-up, take off and special eccentric strength / power at take off. As you realize, he is very dependent on horizontal speed and this is where his short (5’11.5") stature and corresponding light weight pay off as he has very little problem with injuries. (E.g. compare with Freitag.)
Speed and Eccentric strength are not what I would call HJ Technique though I understand your frame of reference.
Were you to accept that some unnamed individual had seemingly unbelieveable speed and eccentric strength, where would you look as to a potential source? Remember I am saying unbelieveable strength and speed.
Clearly he is not the world’s fastest man nor the strongest. But given the demands of the event, his relatative advantages and disadvantages, I offer that to my mind, the sum of these components do not equal the end result on face value. The 1000 lb gorilla in the room being there and my introducing it in the earlier post.
Thanks KK i whish you post more about your coaching experience here.
Topics are crossing now but i’m back with the LJ an dmike Powell issue. Here is a kinogram i made, which illustrates the points we made, for the 8.95 jump. Comments?
Well, yes. I am referring in particular to the specific strength developed by execution of the event in question, i.e. high jump, as opposed to the more general eccentric strength developed by different jumping & bounding exercises.
While Stefan’s run up is speedy, he certainly is not what most members on this board would consider fast as evidenced by his recent 60m PB of 7.33.
I would like to put it differently: A lot of (most?) athletes achieve a sum that is considerably less than their parts.
again, my point except
A lot of (most?) athletes achieve a sum that is considerably less than their parts
being in this case…
Certain athletes acheiving a sum that is considerably greater than their birth given parts…
Certain athletes certainly do. Certain Swedish athlete do not. Oh, how I wish I could bet on this…
Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree…
Thanks for the give and take.
Pierre Jean,
The obvious comment on the Powell shots is.
Man is he going vertical…
Indeed, statistically, take-off angle is dependant on run-up speed, and here Powell did something exceptional. This combinaison is only possible thanks to an exceptional specific strentgh (to go back to the original topic). Maximum knee flexion during support phase is an expression of that strength, and looking at the pictures, his take-off leg knee angle remains very high. Last year Mike told me his standing long jump was 11’2 (3m40), which isn’t that great and as far i’m concerned, that is actually non-specific strength test for long jump. Also, checking JAAF/IAF data, Powell’s specific strength was better than Lewis:
Knee angle at TD / support / TO
171° / 148° / 171° POWELL 8.95
165° / 140° / 171° LEWIS 8.91
Interesting to compare data for Powell between Seoul’88 and Tokyo’91 (From IAF) :
Seoul’88 / Tokyo’91 / Parameters
8.49 / 8.95 / official distance
8.57 / 9.00 / effective distance
10.89 / 10.79 / speed 11-6m
10.39 / 10.94 / speed 6-1m
9.50 / 9.09 / horizontal speed
3.10 / 3.70 / vertical speed
17.9 / 23.1 / projection angle
Don’t have data for knee angles in Seoul but surely Powell’s knee flexion was bigger in Seoul than in Tokyo.
Bonjour PJ,
Great pixsequence. I have been looking over the IAF biomechanics report of the 88 Olympics and there is a lot of information on the LJ, but nothing I could see regarding knee flexion.
One thing which may be of interest regarding the “setup” for takeoff shows the length of each of the last four strides.
For Lewis: (4) 2.51m (3) 2.50m (2) 2.42m (1) 2.32m
For Powell 2.28m 2.21m 2.44m 2.32m
There was criticism among the panel (which included Dan Paff, Keith Connor and Rocky Light) of the report findings compiled by Nixdorf and Bruggemann of the methods employed in lowering the centre of gravity prior to takeoff.
But the report mentions: Voloshin, Joyner-Kersee, Chistyakov and LEWIS produce takeoff velocities of 3.5m/s. Becauise of their angles of projection of more than 23 degrees the first three jumpers are classified in the group of high angle jumpers. The authors report an extreme value of the angle of projection from Robert EMMIYAN’s 8.53m jump at the 2nd world championships in Rome. His vertical takeoff velocity was calculated at 4.0m/s. LEWIS produced 3.5m/s vertical take-off velocity as well but, because of his higher horizontal take-off velocity, in comparison to the other athletes, his angle of projection is about average.
Elsewhere the report states: The tendency of variations in stride length must be considereed in conjunction with the path of the COM and the forward or backward orientation of the body during the last strides when the athletes prepares for takeoff.
I don’t now that any of this takes your discussion anywhere new. Then again I confess that a lot of the data is a blizzard of statistics which requires the kind of strict attention I don’t have for the subject these days.
Researches since at least early '60s have shown reductions of length for the last stride before take-off, Lewis beeing the best example of this, even his Seoul jump doesn’t show it clearly (note that his actual distance in Seoul was 8.90…).
BUT, in 1968 something incredible happened and this feat was analysed and commenting during 20 years. In Beamon’s jump, the last stride was significantly longer than the 2nd last (2m60 to 2m40). The lowering of COM was much lesser than any other great jumps before and since. Some athors said Beamon lengthened unwillingly his last stride which was also more powerful than usual. The amazing thing is how he managed to transfer this into a jump, the picture here doesn’t show his support leg during stance but i can tell you it was straight like a brush.
Here are some data for this jump, again, numbers change according analysis, but i sum-up the things:
8.90 Official distance
8.92 Effective distance
10.86 run-up 11 to 6m
10.56 run-up 6 to 1m
8.80-8.89-9.2 Horiz speed at TO
3.90-3.67-3.5 Vert speed at TO
24.0–21 Projection angle at TO
2.40 Length of 2nd last stride
2.57-2.60 Length of last stride
The picture was taken by Mr Blois in Mexico, and it was the main tool for biomechanical analysis. East Germans did exactly the same chronophotography, but taken from a slightly lower crowd and obtained different numbers.