London: 'Bomber' Shot Dead -22July05-

LONDON, July 22 Police :eek: shot a man dead at an Underground station in south London today, amid reports that he was a would-be suicide bomber.
We can confirm that just after 10am today armed officers shot a male at Stockwell Underground station,'' a spokesman for London's Metropolitan Police said. Sky News television reported that the man was a suspected suicide bomber’’ and that passengers had been evacuated from trains at the station.
Some media reports said the man is dead.
Witnesses quoted by BBC and Sky News said the man who was shot appeared to have been of south Asian origin.
They pushed him onto the floor and unloaded five shots into him. He's dead,'' witness Mark Whitby told the British Broadcasting Corp. Whitby said it didn't look like the man was carrying anything but said he was wearing a thick coat that looked padded. We were on the Tube and then we suddenly heard someone say ‘Get out, get out’ and then we heard gunshots,’’ said passenger Briony Coetsee.
Chris Wells, who was a passenger evacuated from an Underground train at Stockwell, said he saw about 20 police officers, some armed, rushing into the station before a man jumped over the barriers with police giving chase.
There were at least 20 of them (officers) and they were carrying big black guns,'' he said. The next thing I saw was this guy jump over the barriers and the police officers were chasing after him and everyone was just shouting, ‘Get out, get out’.’’
Christopher Scaglione said: I was just on my way out when I heard at first a little bang -- not like a bomb, more like a gun -- and then people were shouting.'' People then started to run and I heard two or three more bangs like people shooting.’’
Stockwell is one stop south of Oval station, one of three Underground stops that were, together with a double-decker bus, the scenes of apparent would-be suicide attacks yesterday.
Yesterday’s failed attacks took place two weeks to the day after suicide bombers – three of them Britons of Pakistani origin – attacked three Underground trains and a double-decker bus, killing 56 and injuring some 700.

Fantastic…hopefully all of these pathetic terrorists will meet the same fate!

The problem here is he was a ‘suspected’ bomber…Even now there have been no reports to confirm this. Those who live in London will know that today wasn’t hot at all wearing a ‘winter looking coat’ doesn’t automatically make you a suicide bomber.

I think whats going on in my City is out of order…I love London town…Since the bombs on the Underground even I’ve been subjected to stares and looks when I come onto the train with my big training bag. One poor lady felt so uncomfortable with my bag on the train that she actually asked what was in it!!

I would like to know what was under the ‘suspects’ coat, because as of yet (this incident happened this morning) there has been no confirmation that this guy was a genuine threat…I dread to think what going to happen in Winter here…We will all be ‘suspects’.

Well, just a general practice I would not run from police officers after their town had been attacked/bombed by terrorists. They tend to go into “war mode”. And if people aren’t smart enough to realize that if they run from police wearing big puffy coats, they could get their shit shot up, then I’ve no pitty for him.

I would like confirmation, but I feel no remorse for the suspect.

The BBC has eye witness reports that this man was wearing a belt with wires sticking out of it, probably a “Bomb Belt”. The police cannot risk this being set off on a train again.

Oh please! Eye witness!? Media hype man…If someone is running past you at full speed you don’t get a chance to see much.

Surprise, surprise:

BBC news website:

Shot man not connected to bombing

Police cordoned off a 200-metre area around the station
A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday’s London attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed.
A Scotland Yard statement said the shooting was a “tragedy” which was regretted by the Metropolitan Police.

The man was shot dead after police followed him from a south London flat to Stockwell Tube station on Friday.

Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus.

The statement read: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.

“For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets.”

The statement confirmed the man was followed by police from a house in Tulse Hill that was under surveillance.

His death is being investigated by officers from the MPS Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

SUCH a disaster this. It is why I wrote "bomber’ in quotations - because it had not been confirmed he was doing anything bad/mad. The security types are now trigger-happy…making matters worse. What if this poor bastard had been Muslim and unconnected with anything dodgy? That would have really tested the trust within the hopefully majority section of the Muslim community which does not thinking blowing up innocents is a good idea.

Terror has taken yet another innocent life. I think eveyone will think twice before running away from police after this tragidy.

The problem in this situation was that his pattern of behaviour fitted exactly with the mental model the police had of what a suicide bomber might do under the circumstances. A great shame.

That would have really tested the trust within the hopefully majority section of the Muslim community which does not thinking blowing up innocents is a good idea.

Sure, but too reserved methods allow for too much flexibility. To PC = Death and more shadow workings.

Getting “News” from the British Media is always iffy at best. The Brit special police got training in Israel- where the policy is shoot first and ask questions later- and shoot in the head as the suspect may blow up with a body shot if they have a suicide vest on. I will say that at least they were quick to admit their mistake.

u guys can try radio havana, Cuba, if u think british news is iffy.

Click on the broadcasting button on upper right I believe. It usually works at my place 8-9pm Pacific standard time.

The weird thing is right when I turned on the radio, I heard “Javier Sotamayor…” they where talking about high jump and other track stuff. Right when I turned it on. I was like this is my type of radio.

Radio Havana:
“American Imperialists bomb London!”
British Press:
Former Castro lover reveals: “I tried to get him to quit smoking crack but he wouldn’t listen!”

That’s the main problem with terrorism - not only the damage the actual attack causes, but the impact it has on our legal systems and society as a whole.

We managed to build a system where anybody can move around more or less freely and secure. (Put the usual incidents rooted in Xenophobia aside). Now in England funny dressed Brazilians have to be afraid to get shot in the head because they might be taken for “bombers from the Middle East” and the US keeps people imprisoned for years without legal trial.

Terrorism undermines our civil rights.

A survey by the UK’s Daily Telegraph finds that an overwhelming majority of British Muslims (77%) think that the July 7th terror bombings were “not justified”. However, a significantly smaller percentage (55%) are unsympathetic to the terrorists’ cause. When asked if they have any sympathy for the motives of the terror attackers, 24% responded in the affirmative.


One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists
By Anthony King
(Filed: 23/07/2005)

The group portrait of British Muslims painted by YouGov’s survey for The Daily Telegraph is at once reassuring and disturbing, in some ways even alarming.

The vast majority of British Muslims condemn the London bombings but a substantial minority are clearly alienated from modern British society and some are prepared to justify terrorist acts.

The divisions within the Muslim community go deep. Muslims are divided over the morality of the London bombings, over the extent of their loyalty to this country and over how Muslims should respond to recent events.

Most Muslims are evidently moderate and law-abiding but by no means all are.

YouGov sought to gauge the character of the Muslim community’s response to the events of July 7. As the figures in the chart show, 88 per cent of British Muslims clearly have no intention of trying to justify the bus and Tube murders.

However, six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified.

Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals who, if not prepared to carry out terrorist acts, are ready to support those who do.

Moreover, the proportion of YouGov’s respondents who, while not condoning the London attacks, have some sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried them out is considerably larger - 24 per cent.

A substantial majority, 56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way.

YouGov also asked whether or not its Muslim respondents agreed or disagreed with Tony Blair’s description of the ideas and ideology of the London bombers as “perverted and poisonous”.

Again, while a large majority, 58 per cent, agree with him, a substantial minority, 26 per cent, are reluctant to be so dismissive.

The responses indicate that Muslim men are more likely than Muslim women to be alienated from the mainstream and that the young are more likely to be similarly alienated than the old.

However, there are few signs in YouGov’s findings that Muslims of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin are any more disaffected than their co-religionists from elsewhere.

The sheer scale of Muslim alienation from British society that the survey reveals is remarkable. Although a large majority of British Muslims are more than content to make their home in this country, a significant minority are not.

For example, YouGov asked respondents how loyal they feel towards Britain. As the figures in the chart show, the great majority say they feel “very loyal” (46 per cent) or “fairly loyal” (33 per cent) but nearly one British Muslim in five, 18 per cent, feels little loyalty towards this country or none at all.

If these findings are accurate, and they probably are, well over 100,000 British Muslims feel no loyalty whatsoever towards this country.

The proportion of men who say they feel no loyalty to Britain is more than three times the proportion of women saying the same.

Equally remarkable are YouGov’s findings concerning many Muslims’ attitudes towards Western society and culture.

YouGov asked respondents how they feel about Western society and how, if at all, they feel Muslims should adapt to it. A majority, 56 per cent, believe “Western society may not be perfect but Muslims should live with it and not seek to bring it to an end”.

However, nearly a third of British Muslims, 32 per cent, are far more censorious, believing that “Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end”.

Among those who hold this view, almost all go on to say that Muslims should only seek to bring about change by non-violent means but one per cent, about 16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence.

Yet again, far more men than women and far more young people than their elders evince this kind of hostility towards the world around them. In addition, tens of thousands of Muslims view the whole of Britain’s political establishment with suspicion.

More than half of those interviewed, 52 per cent, believe “British political leaders don’t mean it when they talk about equality. They regard the lives of white British people as more valuable than the lives of British Muslims”.

Almost as many, 50 per cent, reckon the main party leaders are not being sincere when they say they respect Islam and want to co-operate with Britain’s Muslim communities.

Despite Tony Blair’s well-publicised efforts to reach out to Muslims, fewer than half of those interviewed, 42 per cent, approve of the way he has handled Britain’s response to the July 7 events.

Many British Muslims are probably reluctant to give Mr Blair credit for anything at all following his complicity with America, as they see it, in launching the invasion of Iraq. Just more than half, 52 per cent, are impressed by the performance since the bombings of Sir Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Great Britain. Some Muslims’ discontent with Britain clearly extends to discontent with the existing moderate and pro-British Muslim leadership.

A cloud of suspicion also hangs over Britain’s judicial system.

YouGov asked its Muslim respondents whether or not they thought anyone charged and taken to court in connection with the July 7 attacks would receive a fair trial. Only 37 per cent said yes. The rest reckon he or she would not or were doubtful that they would.

Despite these widespread doubts, a large majority of Britain’s Muslims clearly believe the time has come when Muslims must shoulder their share of the responsibility for preventing and punishing terrorist crimes such as those in London.

As the figures in the chart show, roughly a third of Muslims reckon they should assume “a great deal” of the responsibility and another third reckon they should assume at least “some” of it.

Even more impressive in some ways is the fact that large numbers now say they are prepared to put their mouth where their feelings are.

As the figures in the chart show, almost three quarters of British Mulsims, 73 per cent, say they would inform the police if they believed that someone they knew or knew of might be planning a terrorist attack.

Nearly half, 47 per cent, say they would also go to the police if they believed an imam or other religious person was trying to radicalise young Muslims by preaching hatred against the West.

Not only that but 70 per cent of Muslims reckon they have a duty to go to the police if they “see something in the community that makes them feel suspicious”.

Taken as a whole, the findings of YouGov’s survey suggest that, although large numbers of British Muslims dislike British society and in some cases may be tempted to attack it, the great majority are loyal and law-abiding and are unlikely to provide the radicals with moral support, let alone safe havens.

YouGov interviewed 526 Muslim adults across Great Britain online between July 15 and yesterday. The data were weighted to reflect the composition of Britain’s Muslim population by gender, age and country of birth.

YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council.

This is not a good sign for the future of peace & freedom in the UK and London. The simple-minded, knee-jerk reaction of many will be to attempt to identify those that sympathize and/or support the attacks and throw them out of Britain. Unfortunately, that is contrary to the foundation of a free country and likely to further inflame sympathy for the terrorists’ cause.

Anthony King is professor of government at Essex University.