so you’d say weights dont help top speed at all? for some reason i thought plyos were more of a top speed exercise than a start…
Consider the position of the legs when running at top speed. When the foot is in contact with the ground, the leg is slightly ahead of the body and then travels back to slightly behind the body … before lifting in the air again.
Thus, while in contact with the ground, the leg is almost straight. Squatting takes place by bending the knees much much further than you would when running at top speed.
However, in the acceleration phase, the body leans foreward and depends on bent leg strength ie squat. So, this would tell me that squatting helps acceleration and even the start of the race… but little in regards to top speed.
you can think of it like that, but what about all those skinny guys who have rocket starts/super fast accelerations? and even improve on it without ever getting in the squat rack.
by skinny do you mean short? 
I have witnessed short/tiny guys with Great quickness and explosiveness. But no, I don’t recall seeing a tall skinny guy with an explosive start. Have you? I mean, Bolt is tall, but by no means is he a skinny (scrawny) guy
But I’ve seen the opposite as well. Were these guys who got bigger and bigger and stronger, also doing regular speed training? And was speed training the more dominant part of their program? or was the lifting more dominant?
And as you say, those guys had great relative strength, well… that’s kind of it too, naturally they were strong, thus the need to improve their squat numbers is not as great.
Oh that’s wierd… the second best youth aged sprinter in the world is a relatively skinny tall guy. He lives near me and runs 10.3, just turned 18. He has more explosive starts than many of your thicker guys + ran a 6.7 60m.
The key word is relatively. Skinny as compared to your typical sprinter of that level.
how fast are we talking?
Hmm. Interesting. Skinny is a very vague word however. Like I mentioned, Is Bolt skinny? Skinny and lean are different. Skinny is weak, whereas lean can still be very strong, but appear very thin.
ya but i meant skinny, by comparing that person to other sprinters who are on that level.
so he’s weak too?
not too fast (4.5-4.8 handtimed 40 yard dash). its just that some of these kids have little to no speed work in their workout programs and have gotten much faster (contributing their improvement to strength increases) whereas others have lifted no weights and done only running, but have dropped little to no time from fr to sr yr.
Ya I’ve seen this too with high schoolers in my school and other schools. Realistically, their lifting improvements will cause more acceleration improvements vs. top speed, and thus their 40 times will be able to drop.
I took my squat up a lot, as well as other lifts, and noticed my first 30 felt blazing fast. I’d done some running, nothing too much. However as soon as I got fully upright, I felt like i was in slow motion.
Now fast forward 2-3 months, where I’d done some good speed work, and squat numbers hadnt improved much, and my acceleration was the same, but top speed was much much faster ofc.
what about plyos? same deal?
could you elaborate a little, just out of curiosity, how was your “speed work” different in after the 2-3 months than it was before?
Im not sure. Plyos, imo, could help every aspect of the race. Plyos would include speed and explosive hops on 1 and 2 legs with or without a box.
Charlie’s Weights bundle goes over this type stuff regarding implementing weights and how to integrate so they support and don’t take away from the speed work. Helps put it in perspective. He gives examples of situations ranging from the Brit/Can issues of crappy weather and usually more weights requirement to the Ja situation, which is similar to the Southeastern US and Southern Cali, where the weather is warm enough to do speed outside and tempo on grass year around with less weights requirement.
once a week, occasionally twice a week. Doing 10-30m sprints on grass. Volume was low, as was frequency, wasnt taking this too seriously. In fact the sprints were more of a warm up for the lifting.
when I got more serious about the speed training, it became workouts such as 2x20+6x60, 6x FEF, flys, 20s30s40s50s, etc etc the emphasis had certainly increased a lot.
And when talking about plyos, vertical plyos will aid max. velocity sprinting the most, as compared to more horizontal jumps.
so depth jumps will do more for your flying sprints, whilst broad jumps will do more for your acceleration.
Weights can make you feel faster. (and power out of the blocks just a litle quicker than before) - during the first phase of a weightlifitng/powerlifting cycle.
This is because your nervous system has learned to recruit more fibers. (hence more power and the ‘feeling’ of more acceleration. But that acceleration speed is only fractionaly quicker, and not quite correlating to the ‘feeling’ much better in acceleration.)
After several of those ‘New’ or upgraded sessions, your nervous system learns to recruit LESS fibers to get the same job done. In both the weight training exercises, and the sprints and any other exercise. So the nervous sytem is trying to return to its happy medium of power outputt, whilst your training is trying to trick your nervous system in to higher power outputt.
After several cycles (much less time for some experianced athletes) you’re not feeling or apreciating the power feeling in acceleration so much, because you are used to it. And…
When you run a 100m, you are learning to pace the power envelope over 9 to 12 seconds, and so you try to accelerate smoothly, so you’ve still got something in the tank between the critical 50m & 80m lines. This is top-end speed for a decent sprinter.
Heavy olympic weightlifitng does not resemble the smooth transition you need in a 100m. It only resembles the jump out of the starting blocks.
So you might leave the starting blocks with higher energy & velocity, putting you in to the next stride at a fractionally higher speed and sooner. But from there, it is all over. Your energy envelope is having to spread itself, and may even be slightly compromised later in the race.
To say weightlifting improoves acceleration speed is a generous statement. It doesn’t improove every ones acceleration speed. Weightlifter may be at 20.5 m line whilst twin brother is at 20m line, but twin brother is moving at same velocity by that point. (In which case, non-weightlifting twin brother, reached same velocity at the same 20m point as weightlifter. Weightlifter is burning up his revs, but twin brother still has more energy left and is looking forward to higher top end speed. This is because non-weightlifting twin brother has spent more time training on the track, doing running, tempo, strides, sprints, hopping and hops with med ball etc… Big open space.)
There is only going to be one winner at the 100m finish line. And 9 times out of 10, it’s the guy who recorded the highest top-end speed, even if it is only experianced for 1 to 2.5 seconds.
And that’s just a pre-season time trial. Twin brother hasn’t even began the ‘sharpners’ yet.
So now twin brother starts doing block start practice, a couple of sled pulls, may be a few cone drills (i dont think they are necesary for all sprinters).
The competition phase begins, and ‘twin’ now atleast matches weightlifter out of the blocks, gets ahead at 25m, and gets well ahead by 70m.
Question: what training can be done indoors when weather in miserable - without having to be maintained when weather is good?
The problem with squatting several times bodyweight, is that you have to maintain it, even when you dont need it (when weather is good enough to train outdoors.) You cant just go back to heavy weightlifting after dropping it for two weeks during a good weather spell. You’d blow out a hamstring, glute or quadricep.
So you have to stay in the gym, when that time would be better spent with more ideal training. You become fixated on how much weight you can lift, and start doing silly things like ‘complex weightlifting cycles’. What a distraction!
Core training exercises, skipping, or light work with kettlebells, med ball, a few callisthenics, skipping etc… can keep you fit and strong indoors. Yet you dont have to maintain those sessions so much, when weather permits you to train outdoors on the track or field. You can go back to those basic, athletic and light indoor sessions any time you like, with allmost neglible loss of form in them. They are merely there just to help maintain a consistent work capacity, and your body being used to training each day.
Pro sprinters are playing with hundreths of a second. They want to ‘feel’ strong as they run through the line. They just do what their coaches tell them to do, and lift the weights. In 1984 olympic 100m final, Carl Lewis was clocked at 29 mph (ON the finish line). He was not doing any weight training that year.
Most amateur sprinters however, are playing with a lot more than hundreths of a second. And they are not going to get the extra second from a special weightlifting program.
I hear what you’re saying but Carl ain’t runnin no 29mph unless it’s on Playstation.
This is all totally useless speculation based on nothing. Point to any scientific studies that back up anything you’re saying. I can speculate just the opposite, but it means nothing if its not based on fact.