Make no mistake. Ronnie Coleman, despite his hilarious weight room antics, is incredibly strong. My estimate based on the angle of the leg press in that video, is that there is about 1200lbs of force required to keep that that weight moving. Obviously this amount cannot be compared to other lifts, but it is a lot.
Yeah I noticed the rocking, but the fact that he allows his knees to travel forward also allowed him to stay more upright than if his shins were kept perpendicular to the floor.
That’s why I posted the video. I wanted to know if I should allow my knees to move forward when doing box squats.
Agreed.
I’m not a sprinter, but I don’t like the idea of rotating lifts. Changing lifts regularly would cause soreness which would affect my skills training / running etc.
The box squat, without question.
An olympic, which is the squat you sit back the least.
For a person of the OP’s stature, this is absolutely incorrect. It is very common for athletes of the OP’s stature to lean forward excessively in a free Olympic squat. That’s what he’s been doing, essentially, and he’s just told you it requires him to lean excessively.
What kind of squat do you lean most forward? An equipped powerlifting squat, which is the squat you sit back the most. The more they sit back / lean forward the more they get out of their gear.
He’s not wearing gear, so this is irrelevant.
The only reason the kid in the video seems upright is because he is rocking on the box. Take the box away from him, or take away his relaxing on the box and use of momentum, and he won’t be as upright.
He doesn’t SEEM to be upright, he is upright. And yes, if you took away the box he won’t be as upright…so why are trying to take away the OP’s box?
A great lift for whom? Everyone? Or geared powerlifters, which is all of Westside.
Great for everyone I know who has had issues with free squatting and who has given box squats a real try. The vast majority of these indivduals NEVER squat in gear…those that do squat in gear don’t use the box squat as much unless they are several weeks from a comp.
I can’t give you a solid answer on that. I still have minor back troubles… and I haven’t been able to loosen up my hamstrings very consistantly.
During last track season I actually became decently flexible (about 3" past my heels on a sit and reach) But during that time, I wasn’t doing any squatting. Coincidentally, I also became a lot faster. I was the fastest I had ever been in my life. I find it very difficult to gain strength and flexiblity because Im sore a lot. Maybe thats just me.
I really haven’t found a way to stretch my lower back. It kind of rounds when i squat deep- probably the cause of my back problems. I haven’t found the pain or the soreness enough of a negative to outweigh the benefits of squatting, so I continue to squat heavy.
I’m REALLY not trying to be a smart a@@ but could you list the sub 10 people who DON’T lift under 2x body weight other then Kim who just retired?
Put it this way, the male sprinters who are house hold names are either buff and strong or just strong for their size. In general, I have found that most of the elite sprinters bench around 300lbs plus or minus and they squat AT LEAST 400lbs all around 170-190ish body weight range.
As far as rotating lifts, you are right in that it’s not advisable for sprinters.
Tyson Gay
Asafa Powell
Usain Bolt
Carl Lewis
Wallace Spearmon
Should I continue? I agree that most probably have the talent/ability to do so if they were to change their training and begin to focus on it, but at any given time a large % of them cannot and many have not squatted double bodyweight to at least parallel. A lot of these guys don’t squat at all.
Most elite sprinters bench around 300lbs? Do we need to post the video of Asafa getting crushed by 1 rep @ 245lbs? And he is one of the biggest guys.
I’d like to see that video. I believe you, just wanna see it!
It was posted on this site ~2 years ago. It is from a Swedish documentary.
I think you should continue,that’s only 5 people which one could argue does not represent the MAJORITY of elite sprinters.
Also, let me ask you this, why would CF feel the need to work, say, his female sprinters up to 450lbs squats?
3 of the fastest ever is not enough? The only two people sub 9.7? Well you can add to the list Obadele Thompson, Kim Collins, and probably some others from SMTC along with Carl.
Charlie’s program can be great and utilize heavy lifting and squatting, but there are just as many or more that do minimal or no lifting (let alone squatting 2x bodyweight) and are quite successful. Most of the East Germans didn’t lift at all and they were pretty successful on the women’s side of things, so I think that goes to show you that it is the complete program–not just sections.
Maybe if Obadele Thompson would have squatted he wouldn’t have fell apart.
The East Germans!!! They came in with a bang in 1965 then fizzed out in the late 80s. Hmm, I wonder why?
REGARDLESS, the women were known at that time to be very strong and that’s the crux of my argument, strength relative to bodyweight plays a vital role in SHORT sprinting events.
Originally posted by fogelson
Tyson Gay
Asafa Powell
Usain Bolt
Carl Lewis
Wallace Spearmon
Should I continue? I agree that most probably have the talent/ability to do so if they were to change their training and begin to focus on it, but at any given time a large % of them cannot and many have not squatted double bodyweight to at least parallel. A lot of these guys don’t squat at all.
Most elite sprinters bench around 300lbs? Do we need to post the video of Asafa getting crushed by 1 rep @ 245lbs? And he is one of the biggest guys.
I agree with you on this point, but I recall charlie commenting on this fact earlier saying that just because they do not lift heavy doesn’t mean they cant. I think that alot of these guys just found different stimulus that possibly worked better for them than a heavy weights program. I also recall james saying that two players on his pitt team who run around a 4.2 40 don’t squat, so its obv not the be all end all
I have been training and competing in powerlifting over the last 1.5 years (getting back into sprinting now), and cannot agree at all with Westside being a safe way to train. Our club was split into two groups, one trained conventionally using linear or some form of wave-like periodisation (mainly working in the 3 to 5 rep range), the other group did Westside. Almost everyone in the Westside group got injured, while pretty much everyone in the conventional group stayed healthy. The guy leading the Westside training had actually visited the Westside gym a couple of times, so he definitely knew how the programme was supposed to work. Doing a large number of heavy singles in exercises you haven’t done for a long time (due to rotating the lifts) is the easiest way to get injured, as you are making your body exert maximum force in movements it isn’t used to. The overall volume of lifting is, moreover, too high for a drug free athlete, and a lot of exercises (e.g. super-wide box squats) is specifically designed for people lifting in multi-ply gear.
Yes, as I said, I’m sure many of these guys have the ability to (though I think that argument cannot be said for all), but the fact is they cannot at the time and would need a fair amount of specific work to do so. They don’t do the heavy lifting necessary to reach those abilities.
There are so many exercises better than both the traditional back squat and leg press.
Cycling sprints up a steep hill, will tend to add more hypertrophy to quads and upper thigh mass than squats.
Atlas stone lifts (and its variations) can enhance posterior chain power, significantly better than any barbell squats. Try them if you dont think so. If you don’t have Atlas stones, then use sand bags gafa taped together, or just put weight discs on a sleeve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTNKg_TGmEY&feature=related
For quadriceps, you could try hack lifts with a barbell. (not hack squat machine).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64PFHtq5XO8&feature=related Just use more weight than she’s demonstrating with, lol. You’ll use a similar weight loading in hack lift to what you would use in a barbell back squat.
Dorian Yates was a succesfull bodybuilder in the 90’s, and did not use squats (bcause of some hip issue he had) and it did not prevent him from developing one of the best legs of that era.
Podium deadlifts (of a podium atleast 8 inches high) will develope more hamstring mass than squat and leg press combined. But don’t use a snatch grip, as you might fatigue the upper back before hammies. Just use a straight down dead hang grip, and off a higher podium. You can use significantly less weight than a conventional dead from the floor, and still get more hamstring involvement.
Even smith machine squats can develope the quads as well as a barbell squat.
Depends what part of the thigh (or all of it) you are trying to strengthen.
I might add Bob Hayes to Fogelsons list. Even though Bob did not officially run sub 10, he ran 10.0 on a cinder track with comparatively heavy spikes on his feet. Plus a storming relay leg.
Konstantinos Kenteris ran 19.85 secs in to minus 0.5m headwing for 200m, don’t know if that counts.
Christopher lemeatre’ of France, ran 10.04 secs as an 18 year old junior, without weights. Though in a one of test, some one said he only powercleaned 50kg. Very skinny sprinter.
I understand what you’re saying… I guess, to be truthful, the reason why I love Westside is because it worked for me. I started to seriously lift in 2005 (drug free) which started out as a Joe Defranco program but then I went deeper into a beginners Westside template because I was not running track at the time.
I will never forget, pre 2005 I just went into the gym and did my own thing (or a BS muscle and fitness mag routine) and at that time I could only best a 285 squat for a few reps and 185 for a few reps in the bench and this was after years in the gym going back to my youth days hanging out in the gyms in the YMCA!
Well in 2007 (drug free), after using westside I was now reping 500lbs in the squat and 245 in the bench; and just last year got 275 (now working on 315). Even my old roomates saw the change in me (voice got deeper but I might have still been growing after 25 years of age) simply by changing THE WAY I trained.
Regardless, Westside to me is similar to the CFTS where it’s a program that’s engineered to bring out your full possable genetic potential; I just never had the chance to combine the two which I’m doing now. Wish I new this info 10 years ago!:mad:
So, as far as I’m concerned, it’s obvious some guys don’t need to train this way because they grow and get strong simply by picking up a fork!! I met a few guys (one guy is in the NFL now who I use to race) who had the size and strength of a grown man in high school! Well that wasn’t me and no program I ever used (even the BS programs from collage coaches) except Westside has ever helped me achieve a higher strength levels with minimal hypertrophy to boot.
As far as injury’s, I only squat once a week and do upper body twice a week. On my off days I eat healthy and do some kind of restoration work (use to do outdoor pool work which was great!). Another thing is that I left my ego at the door of the gym which means that if I felt I did not have it in me I did another exercise or maybe even just left the gym completely and zerped out in the shade under a palm tree… Because of this; I’m PROUD to say I have never been seriously injured from lifting heavy weights or from switching the main exercise every 3 weeks. (mind you, now that I’m sprinting I just stick to squats, bench and pull-ups to avoid getting sore)
I will admit, I have been lucky to see quite a few fast guys lift weights in front of my eyes who did not lift weights in the manner that I though would be necessary to run a fast time.
For example, I saw Coby Miller play around with 225 (he was injured at the time), saw a 100m UCLA 10.2 sprinter in 2003 play around with 225 (4-8 reps/sets), another 10.1 sprinter I know stays around 225 bench/315 squat, also trained with a 9.9 sprinter who I never saw bench more then 225 (he just did it for reps/sets) and I know of another 10.2/45.9 guy (with long arms and legs) who maxed out at 225 for reps/sets.
Most of these guys were around 170-180lbs.
Your experience notwithstanding, Westside is not dangerous. Box squats are not dangerous. Statisitics have shown that all forms of weight training are much safer than just about any type of running, and certainly safer than plyos. Its not a matter of safety, period. Its about getting as strong as you can (or need to) effeciently and effectively. Powerlifting squats are not for everyone, but they are effective at building limit strength and they are NOT dangerous.
Obviously false. Look at the worlds greatest cyclists and compare them to even amateur bodybuilders. If cycling hills built mass, bodybuilders would be doing them. They don’t.
Atlas stone lifts (and its variations) can enhance posterior chain power, significantly better than any barbell squats.
Obviously false again. The atlas stone uses more back than a deadlift, and neither build hip and upper thigh mass as well as a squat.
Dorian Yates was a succesfull bodybuilder in the 90’s, and did not use squats (bcause of some hip issue he had) and it did not prevent him from developing one of the best legs of that era.
He used leg press, and would have used squat if he could. He didn’t cycle and didn’t lift atlas stones.
Even smith machine squats can develope the quads as well as a barbell squat.
You have lost your mind.