Could well be …who knows…even Kerron Clement was way better in 2005…and with Kersee, while winning, there wasn’t any improvement in any distance.
Charlie, I vote to ban him, I have held my tongue or keystrokes after reading a number of his degrading posts in the last few months, but the bottom line is he needs to go as he makes all Americans look bad with his degrading “ugly American” posts for specifically ridiculing a number of folks on this site who speak English as a second language. Most of us Americans do a poor job speaking English so I am not sure how we can criticize people in the first place who speak and write in a number of languages. Bottom line I am on this site to learn and I do not learn from Fogelson, he is a distraction and takes away from the site.
Also, if i remember right someone posted he is the same person who used to go by the Davan name on the site and you banned once already. Charlie
Actually, I criticized him for not reading what is said and purposely ignoring what was said (maybe you should read the posts yourself), not for English being his second language. In fact, if you read his post, he completely makes up something I did not say (attacked me about the 200m to 400m track differential which I never brought up as a primary point in any posts before his attack).
I think banning him would be a mistake. He’s very well read and makes good points. We all get a little heated at times, not a big deal–we’re men. He’s a valuable resource, would like to have him around.
CJenks, I don’t see why you want to inflame the issue further. The argument had died down by the time you made your post. I like Eros and Fogelson and think they are both very good contributors to the site. Let’s continue to move forward.
i think it’s the best time to post my comment and finaly know what are drill outs 
!!! it was posted on the website below, on the first pages of this discussion :
http://www.usatf.org/groups/Coaches/education/specialPrograms/2008/SuperClinic/presentationNotes/Dwayne%20Miller’s%20notes.pdf
is it A skip and B skip ???
thanks
Whether Fogelson is Davan or not I do not know or care. Banning someone is an extreme step and while he is certainly abrasive at times, Fogelson does contribute to discussions. Eros is a fully grown man who can stand up for himself and CF clearly set his standard. Let’s move on.
There needs to be a perspective here on Miller’s background. He is an age-group coach. Amongst this group there is often an attitude that hard work, often extremely hard work, at early ages is the be all and end all. The fallout from age-group track is frightening. Talented athletes destroyed by greedy, uneducated coaches. The atmosphere in age-group track is toxic with incredible pressure and expectations on some very young (below age 10) kids. In the higher ages it’s all about the scholarship and how much you can get. There is no other standard and VERY few of the athletes who have been in this system for more than a season or two compete well or even at all after age 18. Paging Obea Moore…
The question is how many has Miller developed and how many has he destroyed. By reputation he has produced a number of good athletes, but I have never seen a list. While I do not agree with his methodology, it isn’t nearly has bad as some of the training that i have observed.
Merritt is an extraordinary talent. As long as a coach doesn’t do anything stupid, he will improve. He’s also very driven and likely thrives off of hard training. Miller’s system is a good fit.
At some point the improvement curves flattens. Maybe Merritt would be better with another coach, but this is the one who got him there and who he believes in. That’s enough for me and obviously for him.
Where I am from:
I had a back operation in 1984, my wife was told I would spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair, she was given the wrong advice. I have had highly educated coaches, physiotherapists and worksafe officers tell me or others I am wrong in what I say and do. I have coached one physiotherapist and the 21 year old daughter of another, they saw nothing wrong with what i did.
I will suggest the reason the majority of individuals leave is simply because they are no longer enjoying their experiences.
Pluto never was a planet, some of the best coaches have been barred or simply walk away. The school yard bullying is more often than not taken to the next level.
I really don’t care and will probably get another STFU in my reputation.
In Australia, Jana Pittman’s and Olivia Tauro’s mothers were regarded as loudmouth pushy parents, they were a parent of very good young athletes and were deemed as in the way of progress.
CF.com is one of the few coaching groups where you can say what you like as long as it is within the rules and blatant !!! is covered.
I stopped enjoying the experience a couple of years back and haven’t left because I don’t run from bullies.
I read it as doing drills that can be turned into runs then doing so.
I also presume if he did drills that couldn’t be turned into runs it was either on another day or didn’t do them.
By the way I didn’t bother looking at the program.
LOL what you describe sounds like your typical British coach…
It might be worth noting that most 800 guys manage 46mid PRs and down to 45high (with some lower for true 400/800 guyse.g. Juantorena) whilst running quite reasonable mileage, up to 60-70miles/week in base and plenty of 30-60min aerobic runs all year. Their true 400 speed when in shape is probably slightly quicker than this given they are focussed on their main event not the 400 when in comp phase and fresh with lower training volume, and more speed endurance work.
If a guy with much more talent for 400 and better 200 speed can be be hitting 44low early (instead of the 45high the quicker 800 guys can do in an early season tune up) with the odd 43high when tapered/fresh, despite the odd 60min run for part of the year, this is not all that surprising. This is not to suggest it is absolutely necessary to do these runs, just that it may not be as detrimental as most think.
Who are the “most 800 guys” under 46 800m?As far as I know, only one…Yury Borzachovski, has a PB of 46.5 or thereabout.
Bram Som 46"87…most kenians are over 48…for sure now faster, maybe low 47 high 46…but under 46 …no way…
Juantorena was a 400 guy, who had a one stint at 800, not a 400-800 guy…the same was Fiasconaro, who had a pb of 45"4.Yeimer Lopez, the saudi arabian guy, are faster, but their pb is form they heydays, we should check what they do run now. ( the same was for mark everett)
I stated most at 46mid with the occasional down to 45high, often the quickest 800 guys over 400 are not the ones that perform the best at 800 (as you state the guys with a 400 background trying to transfer will have inflated 400 PRs for an “800 guy”), and a lot of the time the listed 400 PRs for the actual top pure 800 guys are soft because they are from their early career or not run in peak shape (plus don’t train with blocks or do as much sprint work or 400 specific work) as I stated above.
Your comment re Borza is wrong, Borza has a 45.84 even though he barely runs it, and hasn’t officially since 2002:
2002 45.91 Tula 01/06/2002
2001 46.06 Amsterdam 13/07/2001
2001 46.06 Cheboksary 14/06/2001
2000 45.84 Tula 24/07/2000
(http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/country=RUS/athcode=137777/index.html)
For those with a listed 400 PR from the all time top lists:
#1 Kipketer has a 46.85 from when he was still running 1:43s (lifetime PR 1:41)
#2 Seb Coe has a 46.87 from early in his career out of season, has much quicker 4*400 split equivalents including a reported 45.5 split the same year at the European Cup
#4 Rudisha has a 48.20 from when his 800 was 1:51 at age 17, I suspect now his PR is 1:42.01 he is probably not like “most kenians” who apparently run over 48
#7 Borza with 45.84
#8 Andre Bucher has 46.32
#9 Vebjorn Rodal has a 46.56
#10 Johnny Gray has a 46.3 from when his 800 PR was 1:45
#11 Patrick Ndururi has a 46.09
46mid PR’s and below is the norm at the top, with some undoubtedly lower in peak shape, if you can show me a guy that has run 1:42point with a true 47sec or higher 400 PR at the same stage of his career, I will be surprised, even more surprised if they hit 1:42 more than once in their career. Merritt is #5 all time currently so using the guys above is a pretty fair comparison, obviously if you take a 1:45 800 guy he’ll more likely be around 47 but an equivalent level 400 to that is around 45mid so the relative difference is similar.
Again, my point is not that 400 metre runners should train like middle distance runners, just that if these 800 guys with lower natural aptitude and specific training for the sprints can hit 46mid and even 45 high off middle distance training with only occassional racing and little specific prep (which ultimately = soft PRs), I am not surprised Merritt can hit 44low openers then 43high with specific prep + focussed comp phase + taper, despite the odd steady state run in the prep .
Yes, right about borza…but for some 800 runner, we can believe that mayeb they are faster early in career, because maybe coming form 400 or building speed beforehand…
43.5 and 46.5 are, however, a world apart…I do not think that 1 month of mileage running for merrit is responsible for any success/insuccess…just a small part of yearly training, and I believe also performed quite slow.
Not really, most of the top 800 guys are certainly not from a sprint background, Bucher and Coe being two obvious examples.
43.5 and 46.5 is a straight bullshit comparison, Merritt has never run 43.5, his PR is 43.75 then only two more sub 44 (43.96 and 43.98). ALL of these have been either in a major championship or later (he has come close to sub 44 pre this but again nowhere near 43.5), not early season or coming off high training loads. His season best pre world’s this year was 44.50, and he has not broken 44 this year.
SOME 800 guys can hit sub 46 at this time of year off MUCH higher volume training, other 800 runners will be 46mid which is about the same difference to the next tier of 400 guys who will be lucky to open in sub 45 early season and look to get below this by the major champs. To say a true 3 sec differential exists (43.5 vs 46.5) is simply untrue, it is more like 1.5sec maybe 2sec at a real stretch.
I do not think that 1 month of mileage running for merrit is responsible for any success/insuccess…just a small part of yearly training
Exactly, and weekly hour long road runs or long reps 600m+ for a general prep part of the year may not be such a problem for 400 guys looking to break 44, given what some middle distance runners with a fraction of Merritt’s talent over 400 can do with a program devoted to this work and with little focussed sprint training or speed background.
I agree on the last part…still I believe that 2,5 seconds is a world behind.
Slow runs are lot less damaging than high volume /short rest/ medium high speed interval training sessions…I do believe that they are also more “neutral” on endocrine/hormonal profile…remember some datas with OW also suggesting this.
Of course 2.5 seconds is a world behind at that distance but that’s not the point I think TSCM is trying to make here.
You have folks arguing nonsensical “Distance training will make you slow as paste, don’t ever do it. Do nothing but high intensity efforts and hard intervals or you’ll be slow and weak and…” and all that garbage (note: not here, talking about the internet brain trust with guys like Cosgrove, Boyle, etc. who are ‘all intervals all the time’ nonsense)
And it is clearly factually untrue in terms of real world sports performance. The top 800m guys are moving. Are they 200-400m sprinter moving? Of course not, specificity still holds.
But clearly the volume they are doing at ‘slow speeds’ isn’t having nearly the damage (esp. if it’s done in conjunction with proper speed work, etc) that some are suggesting.
Lyle
I think this is clear enough…everything has a place…important not come back to old milieaus, like…6 am 6 miles for football players, or 1 hour morning run everyday to get in shape for boxing…
Being easier than certain interval training protocol, does not mean ideal for speed power athletes, just less deleterious maybe.
Resurrecting an old thread…Is Lashawn merritt still training with the same coach while waiting to be re-enstated by Iaaf?