That is why Wariner is doomed as long as LaShawn stays motivated and healthy.
Here are both Jeremy’s and LaShawn’s bests over the years…
Wariner
2004 (20 yr old) - 44.00
2005 (21 yr old) - 43.93
2006 (22 yr old) - 43.62, 43.91, 43.99
2007 (23 yr old) - 43.45, 43.50
2008 (24 yr old) - 43.82, 43.98
2009 (25 yr old) - 44.60
Merritt
2006 (20yr old) - 44.14
2007 (21yr old) - 43.96
2008 (22yr old) - 43.75
2009 (23yr old) - 44.06
I didn’t include any 44+ times for these guys unless it was their SB that year. Jeremy has dropped below 44 seconds on eight different occasions compared to Merritt’s two times. Also, Wariner’s PB is .40 seconds faster than Merritt’s - not to mention that he has beaten Merritt’s PB three times.
I guess my question is: “What happened?” To me, Jeremy at his best was better than what Merritt at his best has been thus far. If Jeremy is able to attain the level he once was at, do you think Merritt could beat him (i.e., Could Merritt run faster than a 43.45?)? I guess that also makes me wonder, can Wariner match his best again?
What are your thoughts?
If you look at the splits of the world championship, wariner and merrit had the same split at 300 m. In the past coming off the 300 curve, wariner used to lead and hold on as well. Now he’s dropping a fair bit in the last 100. Where as Merrit is getting more confident, he sees wariner in front or beside him and knows he can get him. Anyway, so I think wariner has to build up his confidence running some fast times (in races where merrit is not running ) and then he will have the belief he had in the past to beat merrit. For now merrit has the edge on wariner. I think 43.5 is close to their best for both of them given their current speed. Merrit has a better chance of running faster than 43.45, purely based on his 200 m time. Wariner is pushing the limit and will be interesting to see if he can run better than 43.45, if his speed remains the same. Will have to wait and see. my $0.02
I know the guy you are talking about and he has a tendancy to see things more optimistically than they are. I doubt that he would have gone sub 44 that season.
Given that they are running the same 300m time, with Wariner dropping off, it would follow that Merritt has more speed reserve than Wariner and is therefore doing it easier at that pace. He’s definitely looked a bit skinnier lately (even more than usual) so speed and strength may be the way forward for him - as it would be for most sprinters, I’d say.
Regarding indoor times…even if it was on a regular track, There is not 1 second differential…llok at kerron Clement’s times.
The person I am talking about ran in the 45s the same year LaShawn was at ECU and this guy was far from a best friend of Coach Carson or LaShawn, so I don’t think there is much exaggeration.
And no, there isn’t a 1 second differential (actually, plenty of people do have 1+ second differentials, but we’ll forget that for now), eros, but if you actually took a second to educate yourself, you’d realize he ran it earlier than Kerron did and in a training program geared almost entirely towards outdoors and they trained right through the meet. Of course, this was all in the idea that he was going to be sticking through at least to the indoor national meet or at least with his coach instead of up and leaving mid-season. Believe what you want though.
Kerron Clement holds WR indoor…I can see that education is not your main assett…but everyone knows that.
The differential depends mainly on how much an athlete cares about indoor races…if they are not a primary objective, for sure more than 1 second…if not, you can count on less, as there are many examples ( Kerron being the brightest one, but also european runners, mainly italians).
Off course you are right:
All time indoor/outdoor:
Kerron 44.57/44.48 ( +0.09)
MJ 44.63/43.18 ( but did not run after 95…where he was just under 43.5) (+ 1.45)
Danny everett45.02/43.81 (+1.21)
Thomas Schoenlebe ( ER )45.05/44.33 (+ 0.72)
Alvin harrison 45.05/44.09 (+0.96)
Calvin harrison 45.18/44.64 ( + 0.54)
Butch Reynolds 45.26/43.29 ( RUN INDOOR IN 93…WELL after his prime) (+2.03)
X-Man 45.28/44.53 ( +0.75)
Terry Gatson: 45.29/44.93 (+0.36)
It Is hard to adfirm changiNg coach as a bad move, since he got considerably better, ranked n.1 for 2 years and won Oly gold and WC too.
Since apparently you don’t understand what the fuck I am saying, I’ll lay it out a little more simply, because he has nearly 0 to do with any indoor to outdoor conversions:
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Merritt ran 44.93 much earlier into his season, against far less competition than Clement did.
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Going into the meet, he was under a heavy training load and he competed for a coach that puts relatively little emphasis on the indoor season.
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He was far beyond what other elite level 400m runners in his training group were doing. This included 45 second 400m runners. These athletes acknowledge this as well.
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A few months later, after switching coaches, he ran his outdoor PR and season PB @ the area permit meet down in Jamaica, visibly less fit. His time was actually significantly slower than his indoor time if you consider the track differences.
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He persistently got slower over the course of the season and only beat his indoor time @ that early Jamaican invite and maybe 1 other meet the entire outdoor season. He routinely lost to athletes below his level.
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All of this has been confirmed by his coach and people training with him at the time, including people that do not particularly like the guy and have no reason to embellish. Merritt himself was routinely asked in interviews if he was going to go back to his coach because of the dramatic drop-off in form during the outdoor season.
Go back to your hole.
Fogelson:
re-read the site rules. They’ve already been posted for your edification and can enforced at any time.
I just don’t know what it is you think you know or how you think ridiculing others will make what you say any more valid, but your tone will stop now or you’ll be banned here.
I’ve been around long enough to see that the more bellicose the language gets, the less knowledge is imparted, and it is an infection that spreads.
If you want to be civil in your discussions, you are welcome here, but, if you can’t or won’t, there are plenty of other sites available for the sort of discourse you seem to prefer.
The point was about yoour quote about +1 second differential, used to argument Merrit form in college.
You can always think that old training was better, maybe it was, but the results speak for themsleves; this cannot be argued.
That was never a prime component of my argument–go back and read the posts in context.
Results do speak for themselves–0 progress this year, significant loss of form when he first left. Sure, he’s gotten better, but he has also matured. He was only 19 when he did his sub 45 indoors, so he should have some improvement just from the fact he would be able to be a full-time, very well paid athlete and maturing. Like I said, I am not saying this based on what you see in an article or a results page, but what people, who themselves were world class in the 400m, said about him based on what they saw training with him on a daily basis.
Could well be …who knows…even Kerron Clement was way better in 2005…and with Kersee, while winning, there wasn’t any improvement in any distance.
Charlie, I vote to ban him, I have held my tongue or keystrokes after reading a number of his degrading posts in the last few months, but the bottom line is he needs to go as he makes all Americans look bad with his degrading “ugly American” posts for specifically ridiculing a number of folks on this site who speak English as a second language. Most of us Americans do a poor job speaking English so I am not sure how we can criticize people in the first place who speak and write in a number of languages. Bottom line I am on this site to learn and I do not learn from Fogelson, he is a distraction and takes away from the site.
Also, if i remember right someone posted he is the same person who used to go by the Davan name on the site and you banned once already. Charlie
Actually, I criticized him for not reading what is said and purposely ignoring what was said (maybe you should read the posts yourself), not for English being his second language. In fact, if you read his post, he completely makes up something I did not say (attacked me about the 200m to 400m track differential which I never brought up as a primary point in any posts before his attack).
I think banning him would be a mistake. He’s very well read and makes good points. We all get a little heated at times, not a big deal–we’re men. He’s a valuable resource, would like to have him around.
CJenks, I don’t see why you want to inflame the issue further. The argument had died down by the time you made your post. I like Eros and Fogelson and think they are both very good contributors to the site. Let’s continue to move forward.
i think it’s the best time to post my comment and finaly know what are drill outs 
!!! it was posted on the website below, on the first pages of this discussion :
http://www.usatf.org/groups/Coaches/education/specialPrograms/2008/SuperClinic/presentationNotes/Dwayne%20Miller’s%20notes.pdf
is it A skip and B skip ???
thanks
Whether Fogelson is Davan or not I do not know or care. Banning someone is an extreme step and while he is certainly abrasive at times, Fogelson does contribute to discussions. Eros is a fully grown man who can stand up for himself and CF clearly set his standard. Let’s move on.
There needs to be a perspective here on Miller’s background. He is an age-group coach. Amongst this group there is often an attitude that hard work, often extremely hard work, at early ages is the be all and end all. The fallout from age-group track is frightening. Talented athletes destroyed by greedy, uneducated coaches. The atmosphere in age-group track is toxic with incredible pressure and expectations on some very young (below age 10) kids. In the higher ages it’s all about the scholarship and how much you can get. There is no other standard and VERY few of the athletes who have been in this system for more than a season or two compete well or even at all after age 18. Paging Obea Moore…
The question is how many has Miller developed and how many has he destroyed. By reputation he has produced a number of good athletes, but I have never seen a list. While I do not agree with his methodology, it isn’t nearly has bad as some of the training that i have observed.
Merritt is an extraordinary talent. As long as a coach doesn’t do anything stupid, he will improve. He’s also very driven and likely thrives off of hard training. Miller’s system is a good fit.
At some point the improvement curves flattens. Maybe Merritt would be better with another coach, but this is the one who got him there and who he believes in. That’s enough for me and obviously for him.
Where I am from:
I had a back operation in 1984, my wife was told I would spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair, she was given the wrong advice. I have had highly educated coaches, physiotherapists and worksafe officers tell me or others I am wrong in what I say and do. I have coached one physiotherapist and the 21 year old daughter of another, they saw nothing wrong with what i did.
I will suggest the reason the majority of individuals leave is simply because they are no longer enjoying their experiences.
Pluto never was a planet, some of the best coaches have been barred or simply walk away. The school yard bullying is more often than not taken to the next level.