L- Arginine L-ornithine

i feel a big difference.
go to www.med-hgh.com the re-nu-u-pm product is great and is powder.

First I should tell you I do not take all these things at the same period. It#s more what I tried over the years :wink:

The brand I mainly use is Nutrasport. I think it’s quite expensive, but they have a guarantee that teir products are “clean”, so you won’t get into trouble when tested…

To feel sg. is a very subjective thing, you can only be sure when taking blood tests etc., but my subjective experience was:

creatine - of all products the only visible effect on physique and definately noticable strenght gain (but only the first cycle I took, looks like the thing “wears off” after one “cycle”)

glutamine - love it before breakfast and with Vit B’s before bedtime. Seems to me to have the effect others describe taking ZMA.

zma - no effect (sorry guys)

BCAAs - not sure, I simply belive in it, but it is hard to tell if you feel more or less relaxed after workout. But somehow I get the feeling that a 9g liquid protein combo right after workout does help me more?

Arginine - simply can’t tell. I simply believe Charlie, who strongly recommends it.

Multivit - I like these Antioxidant things (containing all the blueberry and mistel extracts etc.), similar to the one Charlie sells. I get the feeling to be “more fit” and catch colds less often.

Talking about things I like I should mention the big 50g protein bar (with almost zero carbs) I take after intensive workouts.
It’s the only thing that saves me from having some burgers passing BK on my way home from track :wink:

But there was a lot said about all the supplements on the board on a more “scientific” level. Check out some of the posts by Charlie, Herb and others.

Thanks for the feedback.

I have been taking ZMA as well and didnt feel that it was working, and believe that it was the brand. So i ordered the original brand from the SNAC website like charlie suggested. So hopefully thatll work better.

Some people report positive results with arginine-induced sleep too. However, what’s more interesting, is perhaps trypthophan? There seems to be valid documentation about the benefits of tryptophan taken before bed time (e.g serotonine, sleep quality and mood).

Why not try ZMA + tryptophan to maximize benefits? ZMA already hold the necessary ingredients to boost tryptophan (B6 and Mg) so in a way, the synergy is already waiting there.

Moreover, since athletes tend to yank norepinephrine and dopamine release with stimulating agents such as phenylalanine and tyrosine plus caffeine and its derivates during daytime (pre workout) they might as well balance this out by focusing on serotonine during nighttimes?

Arginine and glutamine, as additions, seems to be suitable in both cases.

Science In Sport already make a very good bedtime drink which is essentially whey cassine + zma + tryptophan. I have some of my athletes who have problems sleeping try it and the general consensus is that it works well especially during multiple rounds of competition over a number of days.

Thier site:




Isn’t tryptophan banned because people would take it then fall asleep while driving?

I thought that having calcium within an hour on taking the zma was bad. so wouldnt the calcium in the casein protein block the absorbtion of the zma

You take the ZMA first (45 min. before the casein drink). That should give it enough time to absorb without the calcium interfering with the ZMA.

Why would there be calcium in the casein protein?

The whole point of the SIS Nocte is that the ingredients are chosen so that zinc absorbtion is maximised. As far as i know there is no calcium in it.

the compnay i get my arg/orn combo from recommend on the box that it should be taken at night before bed.
i do this and take it 45min before workout. working out fine so far!!

I don’t think its ideal to ban an amino acid that’s essential in human nutrition – can’t live without it! However, there was an incident about “contaminated” L-tryptophan that caused serious problems for people. It was eventually traced back to a particular manufacturer (Showa Denko) and the whole mess was caused by their use of a bacterial culture in synthesizing tryptophan. 5-HTP (5-Hydroxy-tryptophan) is a “refined” version of tryptophan that became popular in the States when the tainted batch of L-tryptophan was pulled from the market. (Wikipedia for more information)

I’m not sure if L-tryptophan is sold in the U.S., but it’s not ‘banned’ in the sense of being ‘illicit’, nor is it banned in the sense of ‘antidoping regulation’; rather, it’s a case of having it on the market or not. In most countries it’s on the market, and very common (as it should be, being just an amino acid after all).

The studies made on people with problems with serotonine deficiency (often linked to depression) are very encouraging. Two people’s deaths were linked to the tainted batch of L-tryptophan. Nevertheless, many more (20-30, [although unverified information so don’t take it as a fact]) has died from Prozac even before it was put on the marked. Well, Prozac is patented medication whereas tryptophan is merely nutrition, and hence cannot be patented… guess where to money is! I’m not saying they are equal in effect, but it’s just funny how patented antidepressants gained momentum when natures own stuff was pulled from the market. Incidentally, Prozac entered the market around the same time when tryptophan was being cursed in the press and became a prescription only “drug”. At least you can still eat lots of turkey 

I think you are right; it’s Mg-caseinate, not Ca-caseinate. Although, the ingredients in Nocté are not equivalent to that of ZMA™; Nocté’s Mg-lactate & Zn-lactate vs. ZMA’s Mg-aspartate & Zn-monomethionine. My own experimentations with “normal” Mg + Zn didn’t award me with the same quality of sleep as ZMA™ did.

That’s pretty much what I was getting at as well. Has anyone tried taking the seperate ingredients at the same time yet (taking SNAC formulation ZMA w/ tryptophan)? What were the results?

ZMA has always been very good to me in regards to deeper sleep and lucid dreams, so it’s somewhat difficult to judge the additional L-tryptophan effect on that part. Nevertheless, there seems to be a change in ‘falling asleep’; being somewhat more sleepy (or tranquil) when going to bed – something ZMA never really did for me. Time of wake up seems to be 30-45min. earlier with lesser drowsiness in the morning. Subjectivity is all we have in this matter.

An additional note about products such as Nocté: I have no experience with that exact product so I don’t know if it works as told. However, according to literature, tryptophan must cross the blood-brain barrier which becomes an issue when leucine, isoleucine, valine, tyrosine and phenylalanine also use the same molecules. Moreover, tryptophan is usually already outnumbered in protein-rich foods and supplements… so you can see the problem. To minimize such competition, it’s perhaps advisable to take tryptophan alone, or with amino acids that doesn’t interfere with this mechanism (e.g. arginine, ornithine and glutamine, if one is looking for combinations).

A working differentiation, regarding some nutrients in this thread, could perhaps look like this?:


  • Tyrosine, phenylalanine, arginine/ornithine

During workout:

  • BCAA


  • Protein
  • Creatine + Q10

Bed time:

  • ZMA + Tryptophan
  • Glutamine, arginine/ornithine (opitional)

I guess it all depends on what one is looking for? The abovementioned regimen might be more useful during pre-comp. or competition phase when one is looking for good sleep & mood and wants to maximize alertness and performance in training. During harder training phases, it’s perhaps advisable to substitute tryptophan and tyrosine (phenylalanine) with better “building material” such as protein blends (night) or BCAA (pre-workout)? Arginine seems to be good on both spectrums. Any ideas?