Does any one know, or has any one tested the average heart rate of athletes during tempo sessions, and would you catagorize this type of training as aerobic power(170+ BPM) or aerobic regeneration (120-140 BPM).
What category of training would this type of training fall into, I know it is tempo, but I need to catagorize it.
Nap
I do take my heart rate just for the hell of it occasionally during tempo sessions and I noticed this fall that during sessions with longer reps my heart rate got up to 170-180 and during shorter rep sessions stayed around 170-170. I dont feel monitoring heart rate during tempo sessions is a good way to catagorize it. Since it is early in the year not only will it serve as regeneration but it will also have a big effect on aerobic output as well as building work capacity. When doing extensive tempo as long as lactic acid is not present and we can manage to finish the way we started I’d catagorize it as extensive tempo with the other being intensive tempo.
Hope I helped a little bit but id liek to hear what others have to say.
Heart rate is a poor predictor of what’s happening, particularly for sprinter, who has a capacity to accelerate the heart to very high rates compared to distance runners. Use time percentage, tolerance and the ability to maintain pace as your main guide for the training itself.
I’m just trying to catagorize the type of work in a general sense (energy cycle) so I can set up an outline for periodizing work. I am having a difficult time coming up with the ratio of aerobic/alactic/lactic work for baseball, and hockey athletes, so I thought I would define the work first, than calculate the ratios. Would the 100 - 200 m distance be to long for tempo work for baseball / hockey athletes? Should they be shorter? What would be the max distance for speed training for baseball player, since it is primarly acceleration oriented? And lastly, can you improve acceleration speed through maximum speed work? Very unsatisfied with the training information and methods used in the development of speed for baseball in the traditional sense!
I can only talk for myself - I always check heart rate immediately after ending tempo. I don’t care how high it goes up, but how far it drops after 3-5 minutes gives me a good idea how my fitness level is.
Not scientific, it simply applies for me - if I’m below 120 within 3 minutes I could keep on tempo running at same pace.
Tempo workouts in general are categorised as aerobic workouts
If your target is to increase your max aerobic power, this would fall into intensive tempo (perhaps the aerobic power you are saying)
If your target is recovery from other heavy workout elements (e.g., accel and speed (end) work) preceding/following, it would fall into regeneration tempo (aerobic regeneration)
In other words, you can use tempo workouts according to training needs and phase you are in
I wouldn’t use HR as an indicator, as it is affected easily by many factors (e.g., weather conditions, terrain inclination, even diet -for example, caffeine, etc); there are issues even with endurance runners using HR as the single way to monitor their sessions; and even more with sprinters as they are not THAT interested in this (if at all) and because usually their short sessions, or rather intervals, do not allow HR to represent the actual intenisty -it might reach high values easily/quickly, but this doesn’t mean that it accurately represents your state
You’d better stick with what Charlie says in terms of pacing and with AUT 71 (i think); the latter is the only way that has some value, i think, much like an “overtraining” indicator, but this again it’d better be after identical sessions and conditions to have some reliability
hope it helps!
Thanks for the information guys I appreciate your time and knowledge, I am doing a project with Bompa and am trying to catagorize different types of work into some form of gatagory. I have to come up with a training model for all types of training elements in the sport of baseball, not easy, complex sport.
Struggling for ideas?
Charlie while I understand your point from a sprinting point of view - However, might it have some or any relevance as an exertion guide for athletes from other sports that are using the Tempo model for recovery or aerobic conditioning.
I’m thinking rugby or soccer type games?
No, because you can be led astray by the pulse guidelines. IE a quick heart rate accelerator will be misled into going too easy and a more distance type heart rate responder will go too hard. Use a percentage time guideline and you can’t go wrong.
A little off the topic but…
I know of a sprint coach who uses a HR monitor during Sp End training. What he does is he looks at the HR right after the sprint (it will be like 190-200bpm after a hard SE1 or SE2 run) and he will keep monitoring it till it gets back down to a resting (100bpm) before going for the next run. Is this worth doing?
directly HR and tempo has no clear meaning but overtaining patterns I can find for 400m runners and up or when in a GPP period.
Nap,
I posted a brief comment on baseball on your other thread.
As for tempo runs with athletes in football I found a simple method. I time them in a couple of different distances and have them run these distances at 65-75% of that time. All factors being equal if they run faster than 75% they can slow down and if they run slower than 65% they speed up. It has worked like a charm for years. Simple and effective.
I would probably apply the same thing to baseball and hockey guys. Remember, they are not track athletes, they usually do this running on their own or with a few teammates so you better keep it simple or they won’t do it or they’ll screw it up. Same thing applies to speed sesssions.
This is a guideline for football:
A. Goal
• Emphasize smooth running form
• Develop Work Capacity: Conditioning for the 10 play drive and the 4th quarter
• Recovery ie: post-game
• Weight Control
B. Pace
• 65-75% of your speed over a timed distance.
• Calculation of 75%: Take your time for a distance x 100 divided by 75.
C. Rest Intervals
• Rest Intervals can vary from 10 sec. between short reps up to 3 minutes between sets. If you are running faster than your 75% pace then shorten your rest interval. If you are running slower than a 65% pace because of fatigue than take a longer rest.
• Rest Interval Activity between sets: sit-ups, push-ups, light medicine ball drills, football specific drills
D. Distance
• Total Distance run will depend on Football Game Specific Conditioning (Metabolic Training) done before Tempo Runs.
For example: Receivers that have run routes for 30 minutes may need 600 yds of Tempo Work. If they have run for 60 minutes they may not run any Tempo on that day. You have to learn to listen to your body to know what is needed.
• Do straight ahead runs. Tempo Work is not the time to work agility.
• First choice is to run on grass provided it is well maintained.
-
O-Line and Big DT’s predominantly run distances of 30-50 yds with total distance per workout = approx. 750-1000 yds.
-
Other positions predominantly run distances of 40-100 yds with Total Distance per workout = 1000-1800 yds. If you are an experienced track athlete that runs 150’s and 200’s for your Tempo Session you can do your normal program.
Hope that helps Nap,
Football Coach
Absolutely not! The heart rate will drop to 100 within a few minutes, which does not represent complete recovery in any way.
I remember somebody who helped with the coaching of a very good 800m runner saying that blood lactate levels can still be high when pulse is pretty much recovered. Lactate wouldn’t be the only consideration for sprinters and sprint coaches but interesting nevertheless. NYC, it sounds like the guy you are talking about is doing intensive tempo.
about the dissociation between lactate and HR
i tested a few 800m runners some time ago on the Kosmin test; after 8min their lactate was particularly high! no doubt their apparent recovery via HR was complete…
for sprinters, it would be interesting, but considering that their lactate would need hours before dropping to almost normal levels, how would you use it? thoughts? unless you use it upon completion of identical sessions for comparisons, but from interval to interval?
Over the last few years what I tried to do with Swimmers has been to identify and differentiate between:
A> Complete vs. Incomplete recoveries
B> Heart Rate recoveries vs. Muscular (Metabolic) recoveries vs. Neural
(CNS) recoveries
My thought being that the six Rest Intervals categories from the above might
actually help identifying the type of stimuli for the same given intensity.
Any thought?
are the above 5 recovery categories? anyway…
from my experience and i think i’m not saying anything new here, the muscular/metabolic recovery and the neural recovery -if you are lucky enough to be able to judge it accurately via some good equipment, or otherwise- would be more appropriately used as the racing distances decreases; on the contrary, HR recovery could be used with some good results as distance increases and from a practical point of view, if you want, given the simplicity to monitor HR; the latter recovery, of course, might conflict in any case with the muscular/metabolic recovery, as this applies to all distances
for monitoring complete/incomplete recoveries, i think, the HR one should be the recovery least used (although close monitoring might give some meaningful info, e.g., sign of overtraining); however, i would stick, if possible, with the other two depending upon event; perhaps, neural for short distances and muscular for longer, or a combination of the two for both…
don’t know if i’m helping here…
I was in shock when I saw him doing this. He is very well versed in speed conditioning. I will have to ask him exacly why he was doing this.
It might have been int tempo. I will have to why he was using a HR monitor for sprints… Maybe I will get him to join the forum.
I was going to ask if the lactate spike after eight minutes could have any relation to the 5k. Say, If after 8mins at 5k pace, I would really get hit hard by the lactates (which is. However, I noticed the key word “5k pace”… and thought to myself, “Lactate levels probably have more to do with the blistering paces in the Kosmin test than time under pressure.” My real question I’m trying to ask here… And I should probably google this like I googled the Kosmin test, is there a specific time in the 5k where lactate levels spike?