Hang Clean Research (opinions please)

Expert Discussion Advanced Sports Sciences
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Submaximal Loads Maximize Power Output during the Hang Power Clean

Researchers from Texas, Colorado, and West Virginia jointly report that relative intensity plays a vital role on power output, when performing the hang power clean. The purpose of this study was to examine the influence or different intensities on power output and to define the optimal intensity for maximal power output when performing the hang power clean.

Fifteen men (average age 22) performed hang power cleans on a forceplate at 30-90% of one repetition maximum. The primary finding during this investigation was that peak and average power during the hang power clean were maximized at 70% of one repetition maximum.

The results of this study indicate that, when performing the hang power clean, power output is maximized at submaximal loads, rather than near-maximal loads. Past research had suggested that training at an intensity that maximizes power output results in improved maximal muscular power and dynamic athletic performance. Therefore, performance coaches should train their athletes with a submaximal load to obtain optimal performance gains.

Kawamori N, Crum A, Blumert P, Kulik J, Childers J, Wood J, Stone M, Haff G. (2005). Influence of different relative intensities on power output during the hang power clean: identification of the optimal load. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 19(3): 698–708. (9/15/2005)

thoughts?

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I’d say that’s about right. I used a tendo unit occasionally for olympic lifts with our guys. I’ve found that power output is highest around 80%. For squats, it’s around 55%.

I discussed this with Mel Siff a few years ago and he recommended that I do a majority of my olympic lifts at around 70% instead of 90% for sprint/jump gains.

Also, the % probably varies according to the proficiency of the lifter. An experienced sound lifter would probably get more power out of a higher % weight.

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yep…agree here. Tendo is one of the best pieces of equipment you can have in the weightroom. I play with it a lot on cleans fand snatches from blocks. Amazing what you can see with the Tendo.

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I would like to know what level of athletes where used in this study?

Power output may peak at loads of 70% for average athletes , however very elite olympic lifters can exhibit high power outputs at loads up to 85-90% from the hang position.

What kinetic variables where measured?

I got large question marks on the validity of many of the studies in published in the Journal of strength and conditioning.

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Subjects included 8 National Collegiate Athletic Association Division II football players, 3 weightlifters, a rugby player, a bobsledder, a basketball player, and a recreationally trained man. Subjects were required to have a minimum of 6 months’ experience performing the hang power clean prior to participation in this study.

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In my experience this would seem to be right. However, the value appears to shift somewhat with proficiency in the lifts, training age and actual age. There are a few papers out there detailing the differences. Apparently, as the proficiency goes up (e.g. elite OLs) the weight that can be lifted at max power also increases.

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To me its not so much about a hard and fast percentage. Most of us dont have a Tendo unit handy so its about watching the athlete.

Maybe think of this question in the context of “at what amount of weight (%) does the quality of early reps decline”
To me, its somewhat similar to applications like box jumps where enhancement occurs from greater drop heights to a point, then additional drop height becomes detrimental.

Also keep in mind where the work (in this case - hang cleans) belongs on the force velocity curve. Working at too high a % of 1RM will shift work to the force side of the curve.

To get the results you are looking for, at some point you may need to address the athlete’s understanding of the purpose of the lift(s). My little Einsteins take the work I give them and then try to make it better through their presumed superior intellect. Kids dont always get the concept / see the benefit of moving ligher weight -faster. A coach I know, often says a kid thinks “When in doubt, power out” when faced with a challenging situation in competition. In the same spirit I’d take his logic a step further and offer that most kids always want to be training on the force end of the force velocity curve.

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Great post CoachMdd- I wish more coaches of your caliber would share their information. I deem this info to be expertise of shaping athletes of all levels.

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Master Tzu-To me its not so much about a hard and fast percentage. Most of us dont have a Tendo unit handy so its about watching the athlete.

Commentary- Bar Speed can be observed through experience of wielding the science of percentages. Tendo units are great but most coaches don’t have access to such equipment.

Master Tzu-Maybe think of this question in the context of “at what amount of weight (%) does the quality of early reps decline”

Commentary- Loads, or numbers are dictated by the movement quality and not by research that is written in stone. Early reps are the small but vital elements in a set that act as windows to the nervous system.

Master Tzu-To me, its somewhat similar to applications like box jumps where enhancement occurs from greater drop heights to a point, then additional drop height becomes detrimental.

Commentary- Loads must be precise to improve performance of the athlete and not improvement of the excercise only. If you fail to see the overall context success of the wrong battle will cause failure of the overall war.

Master Tzu-Also keep in mind where the work (in this case - hang cleans) belongs on the force velocity curve. Working at too high a % of 1RM will shift work to the force side of the curve.

Commentary- Cleans are weapons of power. The choice to use olympic lifts are to express the velocity component. Too much load will not direct the effort to the right direction. Exercise selection must be in harmony with load precription.

Master Tzu-To get the results you are looking for, at some point you may need to address the athlete’s understanding of the purpose of the lift(s). My little Einsteins take the work I give them and then try to make it better through their presumed superior intellect.

Commentary- The soldiers must understand the means of attack and their role. The General has already placed the necessary and correct strategy and expect the army to work on the tactics.

Master Tzu-Kids dont always get the concept / see the benefit of moving ligher weight -faster. A coach I know, often says a kid thinks “When in doubt, power out” when faced with a challenging situation in competition.

Commentary- The effects of the methods of war untill the surrender so reminders of the direct process must be instilled. Indirect protocols should be left to the General.

Master Tzu-In the same spirit I’d take his logic a step further and offer that most kids always want to be training on the force end of the force velocity curve.

Commentary- The Soldiers psychologically are tempted to give in the Force elements and not the velcocity needs. Generals should be aware of this.

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Too generous…

As far as more people like me sharing on sites like this, I think the trend is less of the good folks choose to do so.

The net and webchat are a recent phenoma. Now that people have experience with what takes place on-line, many with valuable insight are opting out leaving too many hucksters looking to make $$$ often from weak offerings. Sadly, the growth market on the web is kids and parents looking for the secret shortcut / quick fix.

I used to participate more but far too much foolishness out there today.

I will share my recent response to someone that solicited me for their website.

[i]Thank you for your message.

I find myself getting less and less involved with websites in our sport. While I don’t know you personally, I am not in support of sites that are open to any and all athletes. Coaches looking for support are one thing, but too often I read questions posted by kids or their parents, and the quickly offered - authoritative answer of a self styled expert, in a continual process that I feel is not appropriate.

To explain further. The typical posts I see on sites such as yours, are questions posed by HS and some college athletes. When that individual is working under an on-site coach which is the case pretty much all the time, I do not think it appropriate to weigh in with responses. Too often the questioner is someone who is either unhappy with or in disagreement with their coach. No matter how limited the coach’s qualifications, it is irresponsible for a 3rd party to jump in with a quick fix response. 99 times out of 100, the man on the ground is the best option for that kid’s success. To me it’s similar to the idea of being a parent raising my own children and having them go and call Mike Brady, Grandpa Walton or some other sitcom father to solve their problems because we all know they must be geniuses given the way they solve the world’s problems within the confines of a 30 minute time window (of a TV show) Sadly, the real world doesn’t function like that.

I carry very high qualifications in our sport and am fortunate to work with some of the best athletes in the US, yet I am not immune to having my athletes here at school, directly or indirectly tell me that they would rather work with someone on the outside. This is unacceptable on many levels. Similarly, I try to avoid doing anything like this as I interact with people in our sport. Pretty much, if I can’t guarantee that I am exchanging information directly with a coach on a website or thru email, I choose not to.

I also avoid any “for profit” websites. Having worked for 25 underpaid and underappreciated years in coaching, I find that I choose to interact with similar folks.

I wish you luck and hope that your endeavor is a success. [/i]

I am not against sharing. I regularly respond to direct emails from people I know.
A service that pre-screened its participants would be a great forum. Til then, I interact on-line at a measured pace til I feel I know someone. (not quick fix seekers and those looking to undermine the on-site coach)

The recipe dosent make the meal, the chef does.

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That very response made an enormous impact to my present philosophy.

Thank You

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My friend, you are one of the “goods”

Happy to help anytime.

PS:
Your ___mail account bounced back to me and your CF account doesnt accept mail

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phoenixelitecoaching@hotmail.com

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Thanks for that CoachMdd… I was actually questioning myself regarding the same thing the other day.

What do you do when you see someone killing thier athletes? I never want to undermine a coach because athletes have to believe and trust thier coaches (otherwise they will try even crazier things they read on the internet) but when you see someone killing off 1/3 of their squad by Christmas each year because they don’t adapt thier volume for the less conditioned newcomers you want to make a difference. You want to say “hey perhaps you should stop training when your shins start hurting like that rather than doing the next nine reps”. How do you handle this kind of situation?

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Wish I had a good answer for that.

The tougher question comes when an “abused” athlete or parent of same, approaches you about a poor/bad coach.

Or, what do you do when it is your child that is being put at risk physically
(not mis-coached in a technique/strategy sense which for better or worse is the coach’s prerogative)

Like every profession there are good and bad practitioners of their craft.
Approaching with friendly advice is about the limit unless there is some sort of extreme misconduct worthy of taking to a governing body.

Among other things in Track, I instruct officials. When speaking to pole vault officials, I ask them if they have ever observed a vaulter who was clearly unsafe and at risk during warm-ups. They all respond yes. Then I ask how many times after making that observation, they allowed the kid to vault in the competition. The answers or the lack thereof, gets them thinking…

Another thought to keep in mind:
How would you want to be treated were the roles reversed?
And for certain, be sure your own house is clean before undertaking any interventions.

Mostly I find I have to bite my lip.
A lot
Easier said than done though…
and increasingly not what typically takes place today as everyone feels both the need and entitlement to intervene.

As this is off-topic, mail me if you wish to continue down this subject.

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To steer this thread back to its origional topic, here’s another thought on adjusting training on the Force - Velocity Curve…

For many athletes, (both developmental level as well as those with years of serious training)
Limit Strength has a greater potential for improvement then Speed Strength

While at first read this may seem to stray from the purpose of working at the velocity end of the curve, think of it as providing enhansement of the Speed Strength work to follow. In the search for the Holy Grail (athlete improvement) there are often times where the athlete might benefit from working to increase their top end.

The idea being after raising their top end on the curve (think new 1RM) the following work performed at x% of the new/higher 1RM becomes an increased overload to adapt to while still training on the velocity end of the curve.

Hope this is clear, its one of those “thinking faster than I can type” moments…