James, sooner or later you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that Westside is not the only means of strength training… nor has it been proven over 30 years on the world stage under one governing body.
‘Maximum efforts’ is something YOU introduced into the discussion. I advocate the traditional repetition method generally at intensities between 75 and 90%. In this way progress can be made without frying the CNS (and hence without detracting from other training components).
Do powerlifters actually squat more than Olympic lifters? Doubtful. Make them squat full range, take away the suits, belts, wraps etc and it would be close. Also OLs perform squats daily so your arguement re: speed strength lifts is redundant.
It is common place for my rugby players to squat 3 times per week and make progress. Make mine a 12 ounce fillet…
Always like reading your posts. You are both articulate, educated and passionate. Young men like the 2 of you are needed in the profession. Just remember that you are not that far apart in your beliefs. Thankfully you both use an Olympic bar and not machines.
Both methods are highly effective when tailored to fit each athletes needs and skill sets. Particularly when combined.
I believe we would be all interested in seeing a sample of your programs. Perhaps for one week. In-season and off-season. (If you have already posted samples would you be kind enough to post me a link)
Keep the discussion going,
Football Coach
P.S. May I suggest not comparing viewpoints with respect to football and rugby. They are 2 of the greatest sports in the world but completely different.
The goal is to enhance limit strength for a football player.
I believe that the optimal method for developing limit strength is the ME method (defined by Zatsiorsky) as being utilizing loads in excess of 90%1RM.
I also believe in Zatsiorsky’s view point which states that the CNS requires 72hrs recovery between ME effort workouts and the next extreme workout.
David, as you stated yourself, the reason why your athetes may squat more frequently is because they are using (sub-maximal loads <90%1RM).
So, the question we must answer is- In order to develop limit strength for a football player which is the optimal method of training.
Now, in this post, our guy is in the off season,however, we must still account for any volume of speed/skill/conditioning work that must be performed if only for maintenence puroposes.
So, obviously there are variables outside of the weight room which must be accounted for, and I am not motivated enough to write out the entire spectrum at the moment.
In considering overall volume of work, this is why I am an advocate of a slightly less volume of weekly squatting (2 squat days instead of your three).
Regarding FOOTBALL specifically, and I believe Football Coach will support my arguement here: squatting with weights between 75-90%1RM at a frequency of 3 times per calendar week during the competitive season is not an optimal means of strength training.
David, I figured you for a fillet guy-you girlie man. LOL!
ME is one method of developing limit strength not (necessarily) the optimum method (particularly for those strength training for sport). As Zatsiorsky acknowledges, only low volumes are possible and these may be insufficient to induce the necessary functional hypertophy to support further strength gains (neural gains are finite).
Westside compensate for this by doing high volumes in various assistance exercises but I contend that this is sub optimal because it breaks the SAID principle (see Abadjiev symposium).
The repetition method is the preferred option of most highly regarded coaches including Charlie. Towards the end of his career Johnson NEVER lifted a 1RM.
David, I admittedly am not entirely familiar with the intricacies the Abadjiev model, other than the grand scope of high volume training. I performed a google search but was not able to find any direct material from the symposium. Do you have any links to reference?
David, does the highvolume high rep work violate said b/c it promotes sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, rather than myofibilar?
And that being said, wouldn’t Tier Training Kenn style be a way around that?
Tier training still has volume work. For a football player it is necessary. A minimalist oly program is not going to cut it. You can get volume from the ME work too. It’s not always a 1RM. It can be 2-5RM. One way with ME was to get 9 lifts >90%, the other way if I’m not mistaken was 100%, 105%, 105+. Also if you look at Kenn using ME work for his players, he’s using modified ME with Prilepin’s chart for submax “ME” work.
I think the argument as football coach stated can be seen as different sides of the same coin. I think the goal here was to improve limit strength, so with that in mind OL’s can be seen as strength-speed and speed-strength (hence the sub-maximal acceleration method). And since the goal was primarily to improve limit strength, it definetly must be assumed that technical skill work is still a primary training objective as well. So with all things being equal, in order to come up with a definitive solution, more information is necessary otherwise we’re just spinning our wheels. How about we consider the fact that maybe, just maybe the lifter we are talking about may be more technically proficient in OL’s or PL’s and that might actually help decide which direction he made need to go. I’m sure we don’t want to recommend some very advanced lifts to a very ugly lifter!!
All my posts thus far have related to ‘limit’ exercises i.e squats, rows and presses. I only mentioned Olympic weightlifters to illustrate that high intensity sessions can be repeated within 72 hours.
The arguement is very simple:
Are three weekly whole body sessions at 75 to 90% more productive than one ME and DE session?
James and I have put forward our arguements, it is now up to the athlete in question to decide which approach to take.
David- Could you post your outline of how you’d be getting in that many sessions? I didn’t know you were including rows and presses as well. You actually are doing similar to Coach X & H. Both of them do high intensity submax work with Prilepin’s, but call it their ME work. That seems to be what you do as well, but with a higher frequency.
For example here’s one rough outline for tier training (Coach H).
just to add my thoughts, if your not doing assistance work, like me, you need to do more reps, 5-6. I do this, then go for a PR in 1RM. Explosiveness and power, well whats your RFD stimulus? If you sprint, no need to do Oly’s or DE exercises, just work on max strength. If you don’t then I like Oly’s, Med Balls, and Plyo’s best. But what is your RFD stimulus currently?
Also my two cents, best exercises for explosiveness and power are the big ones, variation of and including Squat, Deadlift, Bench Press, and Oly’s.
This is absolutely a more optimal method of inseason strength training. There is not much place for 1RM attempts on limit lifts for inseason football players.
I do agree with David, in that there seems to be some confusion with the utilization of the term ME.
According to Zatsiorsky ME is defined by the utilization of loads in excess of 90%1RM. Prilepin suggests no more than 10 ME lifts per workout at no more than 2 repetitions per set.
We may also, however, define ME work as loading parameters which serve to develop maximum strength. In this case you will observe the utilization of the lighter percentages which David has his athletes utilize, 5RM attemps and so forth.
According to Zatsiorsky’s definitioin of ME, this is not true ME method training, as only a highly untrained subject, or endurance athlete, would be able to perform a 5RM with +90%1RM, however, we may still view this type of work as maximal in terms of the ‘effort’ exerted in performing a low RM attempt.
However, a 2 or 3RM with +90%1RM is do able for many athletes, therefore, would accordingly fall under true ME work.