Good point.
That’s an interesting point. The last time I really competed was in high school, and on average I was about a 12 sec 100m runner (I ran a freak 11.6 one day in practice). I routinely competed against black kids that ran 10.7, 10.8. My coaches were distance runners so I had no proper coaching (and I fought with them endlessly, which is why I didn’t bother running in college). And yet, even without proper coaching and being pretty skinny and not very strong I could still beat a lot of these faster kids out of the blocks and stay with them for about 30m. Then they would continue to accelerate and I would fall back (in retrospect probably because I was tightening up from trying to keep up with them). This also relates to my previous post about beating Ron Clark to 30m. If I had set the cone at 50m he likely would have mowed me down.
Could my acceleration ability have come from my soccer background? I was usually one of the fastest kids on the field. If we look into the background of some of these fast 60m white sprinters, we might find sports that involve short burst accelerations like soccer or football. As far as extending acceleration to reach higher speeds, who knows. Just an observation based on personal experience.
wHO KNOWS… for sure we have plenty of talented juniors and under 18…and they progress very slightly if any…
This goes to the heart of athlete development, which is really what this thread is about, how best to judge the trainings needs of athletes.
When talking about progressing from junior to more senior levels of development, coaching continuity plays a big role. This is why Charlie’s experience and insight is so valuable. I don’t know of another coach that trained sprinters from scratch to world class level on a consistent basis and without recruiting or screening athletes. He simply coached whoever showed up. The fact that most of his athletes were black had more to do with where he was coaching. That’s who showed up. If he had started in a predominantly white section of town, would the ethnic makeup of sprinting elite in the 80s have been different, at least from the Canadian quarter?
There could be any number of answer to why this is, but it’s only partially a matter of race and mostly a matter of individual characteristics.
A lot of the features that West African blacks are more predisposed to having aid more in top speed than acceleration. Narrow hips help keep rotational forces low and minimize long axis rotation (important for top speed, not accel). Long limbs relative to the body mean longer levers (more important for top speed). Higher white fiber content and stiffer tendons allow for lower ground contact times (essential at top speed, but not so much during accel). Muscle fiber distribution favoring the hips, hip flexors, and hamstrings aid in top speed and SE (quad development can make up during early accel). And psoas development (which is on average 3 times greater in blacks than in whites) is needed for efficient top speed running.
Now, all of the features listed above primarily play a role in top speed. It’s possible to have wide hips, short legs, short tendons, and a mixed fiber type and still have good acceleration. Since black athletes more commonly display positive characteristics, it would make sense that they would commonly exhibit greater top speed and SE.
Having said all of that, it’s perfectly possible for a white guy to have all of the same characteristics as Usain Bolt, but it’s unlikely (truth be told, it’s unlikely for a black guy to have those characteristics as well).
The reason we see less white sprinters is because West Africans more commonly exhibit the traits that make them great sprinters. And since Olympic sprinters are already 1 in 10,000,000 (or more), it’s just a matter of finding those with the right characteristics. What this may mean is that for every 4-5 black guys capable of going sub <10, there may only be 1 or 2 white guys, but they’re there none the less. Race says nothing about an individual’s abilities, only their individual characteristics do.
As for the relative success of white athletes in the 200M and 400M in comparison to the 100M, this could be a case of the really good white athletes actually having been located, or it could also relate back to genetics. I would personally assume that Mennea and Wariner could’ve done great the 100M (or 200M in Wariner’s case), but might have been steered away for one reason or another. Either way, their accomplishments show it’s not about race, it’s about finding athletes with the right characteristics.
It’s just that fewer white athletes exhibit them, so the search is a bit harder.
this is a very interesting discussion. I agree with many of the posts. With that said i have always been intrigued with topics like these. It seems to me that there are so many white athletes placed in events that are supposed to cater to “caucasions.” Obviously this has been stated by others but an athlete like Trey hardee comes to mind. Hes 6’5" 210 decathlete. He has run very impressive times from a 10.2 100m, as well as long jumping close to 8 meters. I cant help but imagine what he could really accomplish if he were treated as 100m sprinter. HIs stride frequency for his height is incredible…then theres the matt bruno from cali who was the first white sprinting champion in years when he won in 2002 i think, and oh yeah he beat REGGIE BUSH lol.
Trey Hardee’s wind legal pb is 10.40, not 10.2.
In the decathlon legal wind is up to 4 m/s…so maybe here is the misunderstanding…
Keep in mind that the main question posed by this thread is whether race predictably determines or contributes to the training requirements of athletes. At least that’s the issue I’ve been addressing.
My point is that individualization of training is of such central importance that training variations between a given white sprinter and a given black sprinter will not necessarily be any greater than the variations between two given black sprinters. Again, what are the needs of the individual?
Talking about different training requirement between the races in general necessarily entails talking about training programs in general. But there are no general training programs (that work). There are general training principles, but their specific application in terms of volume, intensity, workload distribution, etc. is totally dependent on the needs of the individual.
Talking about statistical differences between sprinters of different races and the anthropometric factors that contribute to performance is one thing. But I’m not sure it yields any practical training advice for a given individual.
Flash, that was pretty much the point of my post. Anthropomorphic factors determine ability (and training). Race does not.
Yes, decathlon has a different wind legalities as already pointed out. Not to mention the USATF site routinely has inaccuracies, but that is another matter altogether. Look up the results.
The funny thing to me is the fact that many training programs that we use today on Africans mostly have been developed in cold climate (e.g. Russia, Poland) regions.
Nevertheless, I have the belief that racial groups are quite different from each other (beyond skin color) and that all racial groups have there own natural proclivities.
What are you talking about? Mills has said most of his training comes from Bud Winters ala SJSU, which is nothing like Eastern European training.
i find it funny - listening to most of you guys.
Something along the lines of - White guys just aint getting the Proper training in… What bullocks
Only the blacks get the good coaching… so laughable.
Without doubt, a white as white guy will run sub 10sec. But this aint the point.
The point is, only blacks are running sub 10sec to date. Currently it isnt raciest at all, its fact.
If your pissed about it, Do something about it! Run faster
Trey Hardee actually went to my school, Vestavia Hills High School, and he graduated in 2002. He has many of our school records. However, I believe that nobody would have guessed that 7 years later he would be a World Champion Decathlete. I was flattered the other night when I was doing a hurdle workout at Vestavia and an elderly man approached me and asked if I was the Vestavia boy who had “won all those medals in Berlin”. Here were Hardee’s HS PR’s as posted by alabamarunners.com. I believe, due to Hardee’s recent level of success, that they go to show how sub-par training can hinder an athlete. While his performances were good in high school, I don’t think anybody would think in 2002 that they foreshadowed his level of success.
300 Meter Hurdles - 39.26
100 Meter Dash - 10.83
Pole Vault - 15-2
55 Meter Hurdles - 7.63
400 Meter Dash - 55.74
I believe that hard work is 10 times more important than talent or physiological structure.
As for the issue of body structure. Every perceived advantage is usually a disadvantage in another way. Ex: Long limbs may hinder acceleration yet help top speed. Vice versa for short powerful limbs. My advice is to play to your strengths, because that is what will come naturally. If you are built for power, you will likely find it easier to build more power than try to radically transform your body to a sleak slender body that may rely more on finesse.
I never had the luxury of an indoor season the past 2 years but I believe I would have had Trey Hardee’s HS time beaten in the 55 meter hurdles judging by the fact that my start is my best asset and based on how I fared in practice against a 7.71/14.32 hurdler. We will see later this week as I have decided to run a 55mH time trial on my own out of curiosity. My best friend from Vestavia, William Henley has Hardee’s HS pole vault best beaten because he jumped 15"6 as a junior. The point I am making in this paragraph is that the kind of natural talent that is required for world class performances and world records may not be as rare as it is made out to be. I believe that William and I, as white athletes, possess the potential to become world class in our events with the right work ethic, dedication, and training. I say that not to boast or brag, but to attempt to explain my belief that the potential for great things is in many of us. The greatest limitation that anyone has is not in their legs, muscle fiber distribution, height or weight. It is between their ears.
“Most people can do extraordinary things if they have the confidence or take the risks. Yet most people dont. They sit in front of the TV and treat life as if it goes on forever.”
I am allfor saying it is about what is in your head, but there are plenty of people who have trained great for a long time, work extremely hard, and have 0 chance of beating Bolt when he is healthy… Talent is huge and undeniable.
Hardee was considered incredibly raw coming out of HS and even after his freshman year (hence transfering to UT and improving dramatically).
While they have tried hard, have they tried as hard as they could have? If they had tried harder or trained a different way would they be faster than Bolt? We will never know. I believe that there are MANY people out there with the potential to beat Bolt out there, millions and millions. Not right now, but with work. Bolt is currently the best combination of hard work and natural ability.
Millions of people with the potential to run 9.58/19.19? Pipe dream.
I’m not saying apparent potential. I am not even saying these people with potential are even close. Not even within seconds. I am saying if these people with potential had devoted their lives to the sport and had the training Bolt had, their are many people that could have possibly accomplished what he had. millions is at least 2,000,000 out of 6,000,000,000 people in the world. That is 2/6,000. How many athletes has Glen Mills coached? Was he really so lucky as to find an athlete with talent so rare that it was scarcer than 2 in 6,000? I know I may get flamed for saying this, but I really don’t think so. He ran sub 20 as a 17 year old, and some may use this as evidence to support the theory that his level of natural propensity is so rare, but how many people had the training background that he had by the time he reached that age. I am pretty damn sure that statistically speaking, his level of training background by that age is much more rare than any immeasurable natural propensity