deadlift

[anaerobic]

Chris30

Thanks for your comments. I used the power snatch as part of my training last winter (shoulder width tho) and got up to my body weight…not particularly impressive; I also used squat and push press, however my shoulders starting giving me gip (probably due to the extra weight on the push press, plus I was doing it behind neck) so I dropped both. I think the snatch is a good exercise but now I only do OLY lift and power/RFD exercises below my head height so not knackering my shoulders.
VG… you’ve got me there; I do have HAND times over 20m however there are so many variables when hand timing, which become exaggerated in percentage terms for short distances that they are pretty meaningless. However I have raced against all the top guys in the country and I’m invariably first to 20m (unfortunately not necessarily the case at the finish line!!) Awright, awright…not very scientific I know!
I used to be a rubbish starter - my standing start was quicker than my block start initially, but with six months solid practice on this one aspect it improved markedly. Also the reaction and first step has improved not necessarily thru’ loads of power training but identifying the right technique and block positions for me (i,m sure I could still make adjustments though) and most importantly, ABSOLUTE FOCUS, CONFIDENCE and AGGRESSION at the start and not giving a damn what anyone else is doing. I used to be very nervous in sprint races however, thru’ plenty of self analysis, reading (sport psychology), trial and error, and plenty of competition I have over the past two years managed to identify a mental strategy which works for me. I tell you I was pretty demoralised at times, it seemed to be 3 steps forward and 2 steps back, I thought I was just a mental wimp…a choker…I could run so much faster in training than competition; but over time I have managed to ‘slay the dragon’ If I can do it , anyone can, believe me.
There are a few naturally fearless and competitive athletes out there but there are a small number. The rest of us must train our minds as we train our bodies. The mind can be trained in the same way as long as youre honest with yourself. Some Jurassic athletes/coaches who live under rocks say “just relax!”… ****ing idiots!! The problem is how to relax! “Leave the mind out of it, you think too much” and its “paralysis by analysis”. Don’t they know that the right thinking sets you free, it does’nt constrict! Athletes must be intelligent about themselves and their event. I see too many athletes, seniors and masters banging their heads against a brick wall again and again…like er, hello! you do the same things you get the same results.
Oh dear I’m on my soapbox, sorry I went off on a tangent!

You might think im some sort of nutter!

Regards

[chris30]

In snatch grip deadlift there is no overhead component. you just deadlift from the floor with a wide grip. (More in common with a high pull)

Cheers
Chris

[anaerobic]

Sorry Chris
I didn’t read you properly…I think I need more sleep!

[CoolColJ]

I think pulls are even better

[Race_Radio]

^^Bump.

Anyone feel they short change themselves not including deadlifts in the program? As there are better alternatives?.

[RB34]

@Race_Radio

^^Bump.

Anyone feel they short change themselves not including deadlifts in the program? As there are better alternatives?.

What do you mean?

[Sharmer]

@David_W

Experience shows DLs to be particulaly punishing on the CNS. The induced fatigue often negatively impacts on subsequent sessions. Even elite powerlifters limit the number of high intensity pulling sessions they perform.

My advice, providing your form is solid, would be to stick with cleans. They permit sufficiently high loads to improve maximum force of knee/hip extensors without the same magnitude of CNS stress. Additionally, research by Kraemer and Fry suggested that overtraining in heavy resistance exercises manifests itself first as a decrease in RFD. The importance of speed in Olympic lift derivatives means overtraining can be more easily monitored.

BTW, MikeH: Don’t use muscle soreness as a measure of an exercise’s effectiveness.

no doubt that over training can elicit undesirable effects however most studies by Kraemer used repeat 1 rep max work on consecutive days or 1rm work with limited rest days between sessions.

alternatively power cleans place excessive loads on the wrist and the AC joint, most sprinters have terrible execution of this lift. Snatch pulls or clean pulls can be a safer alternative.

[Race_Radio]

@RB34

What do you mean?

I just got through reading Barry Ross’s e-book when I wrote that. He ain’t no Charlie Francis, but I do like basic lifts/exercises etc.

A few key points I took from it:

• The lift that helps the runner’s acceleration is the one that recruits the larger motor units: The DL.
• The lift that prolongs “speed endurance” is the one that recruits the larger motor units: The DL
• The deadlift works a significantly greater percentage of the muscles, motor units and involves multiple joints.

Basic Barry Ross template:

• Deadlift every session, 2-3 sets of 2-3 reps @ 85-95% 1RM, TIMED.
• Plyometrics at the end of each set, within 1 minute of set completion. The focus is on delivering maximum strength in minimum time.
• Plyos follow each set of deadlifts within 90 seconds. As our plyometric exercise we do 6 double leg box jumps to start with. As we progress we change to 6 to 10 stationary one leg jumps depending upon the athletes level of fitness. You can also use stationary rope jumping…double or single legs as a plyometric exercise.

[Race_Radio]

EMG analysis study; Squat Vs Deadlift.

The study looked at eight different muscle sites calf, two quadriceps, two hamstrings, glutes, lower back and abs. Seven weightlifters took part in the study and where randomly assigned to either perform an olympic squat (full squat high bar position) or conventional deadlift first (3 reps of their 6 repetition maximum (R.M.)). After a five minuite rest they perfromed the protocol on the other exercise.

EMG data was collected during each exercise for all eight of the selected muscle groups.

What follows are graphs showing the magnitude in activation (using the root mean squared technique) comparing both exercises.

Click the link for full graph.

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showpost.php?p=236830&postcount=108

The deadlift showed a markedly greater level of activation in 5 out of the 8 muscles sampled. The deadlift also showed greater levels of activation in the VM which is counter-intuitive to say the least.

Conversely the squat showed higher levels of activation in the ST muscle which is also somewhat surprising since variations of the deadlift (namely stiff legged deadlifts have been shown to have up to 2x higher levels of activation in all hamstring musculature.).

These graphs are a better barometer of total EMG data and not a good indicator of the timing of motor unit firing.

If you look at the GN the reason it comes out with a much larger RMS value is due to a prolonged time under tension and since the level of activation in both exercises is almost identical.

As far as lower back and abs are concerned the deadlift blew away the squat in the lowerback and edged it out in the abs department. Prior EMG studies have shown that squats and deadlift are superior to conventional abs exercises and instability training for the activation of the mid-section musculature.

Cliff notes:

Deadlift superior in five out of eight muscles studied.

Calf muscles show higher levels of activation in the squat due to a higher time under tension.

Squat shows higher levels of activation in one quad and one hamstring studied and vice versa for the deadlift.

Deadlift shows far greater levels of activation in the glutes (3-4x plus). WTF?.

Deadlifts show higher levels of activation in the midsection.

[Race_Radio]

The thing is, at the end of a deadlift, I squeeze the $hit out of my glutes.

The guy in that study can’t have squeezed his glutes at the top.

[RB34]

@Race_Radio

The thing is, at the end of a deadlift, I squeeze the $hit out of my glutes.

The guy in that study can’t have squeezed his glutes at the top.

I’m not into all those damn studies but I will say I’m going back to my old school lifting this fall, deadlifts in gpp and snatch grip dl in spp.

[Race_Radio]

@RB34

I’m not into all those damn studies but I will say I’m going back to my old school lifting this fall, deadlifts in gpp and snatch grip dl in spp.

I think there generally a safer exercise (especially with a trap bar). No need for spotters. Part of the thesis is that the deadlift is a better tool for knee rehab due to the ease of coaching and that the majority of force is born through the ankle.

They can murder your back though, if you don’t get your form down.

Yeah, take the studies with a pinch of salt.

Sumos show larger quad activity over conventional deads from 13 collegiate football players.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13597710

[speedcoach]

eliminates some rear chain stress. It kinda become a little like a squat due to hand placement. I work with mostly football players and I only have line and big skill dead in gpp. Seems when they get to far into intensification, backs start getting real sore.

[RB34]

@speedcoach

eliminates some rear chain stress. It kinda become a little like a squat due to hand placement. I work with mostly football players and I only have line and big skill dead in gpp. Seems when they get to far into intensification, backs start getting real sore.

That’s weird you guys experience back issues with the deadlifts. I have done deadlifts in gpp and snatch deadlifts off a 4in block in spp with zero issues. I kept the volume lower in both blocks gpp 3x5-8 and spp 3x3-5. First 10 was off the chains…

[speedcoach]

they are always pushing too hard. Most of them have no issues, some sore backs when the weight gets up over 405. I have 4 or 5 high school kids who can do 495+ deadlift without issue. I just worry about the risk of a tweak. We follow 531 template on core lifts and trust me, the 531 days scare me toward end of max strength. Even doing everything tight and controlled, there is always the risk of injury. Glad we are pushing speed at max and reducing weight work. Everyone is healthy and strong as hell. Now, just hone speed until camp and then all the good work wil get thrown out the window when the college and high school coaches run them into the ground.

[Race_Radio]

@speedcoach

they are always pushing too hard. Most of them have no issues, some sore backs when the weight gets up over 405. I have 4 or 5 high school kids who can do 495+ deadlift without issue. I just worry about the risk of a tweak. We follow 531 template on core lifts and trust me, the 531 days scare me toward end of max strength. Even doing everything tight and controlled, there is always the risk of injury. Glad we are pushing speed at max and reducing weight work. Everyone is healthy and strong as hell. Now, just hone speed until camp and then all the good work wil get thrown out the window when the college and high school coaches run them into the ground.

Yeah, numbers mean nothing to me. Two of the fastest guys I ran against in HS were 0lb’s in the squat, dead or squat with heavy emphasis on great core strength, bodyweight exercises, jump rope & genetics & (THEY were fast).

I certainly ain’t gonna start training like Jim Wendler in the weight room. Until guys at westside are blazin’ past me, I ain’t taking note.

In fact even though he gets criticized heavily on these forums, I prefer Barry Ross’s program.

[speedcoach]

different with footbal from track though. You just can’t emphasize speed. Strength is a very real part of their game. Speed only gets you so far. In your sport, speed is all that matters, so I agree with you on that. In football you need to be strong and capable of taking a pounding game after game. We have had one major injury in the past 15 years, that was a non contact ACL. I like what we do, great results, no injuries. One of my kids just got a handwritten letter from UCLA, got invitied to throw at Purdue’s camp, was being watched by MSU and was getting a lot of love from Michigan QB coach at their camp. He is going to be a sophomore next season. Already rated the best frosh QB in Michigan. Ran 4.63 at U of M, can put it out there about 60 yds. At 6’2" and 185, he needs to get bigger and stronger and he will be fine.

[Race_Radio]

@speedcoach

different with footbal from track though. You just can’t emphasize speed. Strength is a very real part of their game. Speed only gets you so far. In your sport, speed is all that matters, so I agree with you on that. In football you need to be strong and capable of taking a pounding game after game.

That’s fair enough.

My favorite football player of all time was Primetime. Was he ‘strong’?. Most corners I’ve seen don’t look particular strong but look blazin’.

[RB34]

@Race_Radio

That’s fair enough.

My favorite football player of all time was Primetime. Was he ‘strong’?. Most corners I’ve seen don’t look particular strong but look blazin’.

Looking strong and being strong is totally different.

[speedcoach]

Well said RB34. The kid who holds the deadlift record for my facility is 6’3" 215lb safety. He deadlifted 560, squatted 500+ and benched 300+ during max testing. I have kids who are 6’7" 325 and can’t touch him. He runs 4.5 and hits like a truck, just doesn’t look like the monster he is.