Dad being a uniformed coach for daughter!

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1

Below is a convo I had with my cousin. He is training his daughter who has lots of potential. He refuses to listen to me.

Charles Whiting
What grade she in now?

Jamar Parker
She in 11th grade…Last night she ran 12.35. The week before she ran 12.18…I’m working on her becoming consistent now…

Charles Whiting
Good . She needs to start dropping into the mid to high 11’s soon. She been in the weight room

Jamar Parker
Yes, I have her lifting and doing Olympic lifts & plyometrics…At the moment she doing a lot of overspeed training because her neurological system is the only thing limiting her at this time.

Charles Whiting
What kinda over speed. Be careful with all them gadgets and pulley’s. They reinforce bad running mechanics. You should have her squatting also. Always do weights on speed days. Never do olympic lifts on the same day as squats. do 5x5 on squats for now at 85% of her 1 rep max. Never do them close to a meet
4 hours ago · LikeUnlike

Jamar Parker
That’s the almost the same plan we following. We doing down hill for overspeed. I’m gradually having having her doing different declines (hills). Going from least aggressive to more aggressive (Deeper angle).

Charles Whiting
To tell you the truth all overspeed training is garbage. all that non sense about training you neurological system to run faster is garbage. No scientific findings behind it. She will never run on the track the way she runs down a hill. All… she can get from that is bruises from falling down the hill. Dont waste your time having her fall down hills for speed work. She needs to get stronger from plyos and weights to apply more pressure on the track which will make each step more powerful. this will move her further down the track with each step which will make her run faster times. Please stop running down the hill before she gets hurt.See More

Jamar Parker
I hear ya cuz, but she’s been able to replicate it to the track and see results. She went from 12.6 to 12.18 in a two week span. I know she’s even faster than that, but she applies the brakes because she is not use to her legs turning ove…r at such a fast rate.
The last two years I didn’t coach her. I just watched and studied her strengths and weaknesses. This year I’m building on all her weaknesses while also focusing on her strengths.
In the weight room she is a BEAST! Lifting and squatting.

Charles Whiting
Her getting faster aint got nothing to do with running down a hill

Jamar Parker
We working on a slight slope right now. Something she can maintain her form but also makes her legs turnover faster than normal. She’s doing good…

Charles Whiting
Lol Im telling you all that gimmick overspeed junk is trash. It will not teach her brain to turn over faster. I just hope she dont pull a hammy doin that. trust me I know a lil something about sprinting.

Jamar Parker I gotcha…I know you do. She’ll be ready and not injured.

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Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2009 Jun;4(2):229-43.

Combined uphill and downhill sprint running training is more efficacious than horizontal.
Paradisis GP, Bissas A, Cooke CB.

Physical Education and Sport Science, University of Athens, Athens, Greece.

Abstract
PURPOSE: This study examined the effects of sprint running training on sloping surfaces (3 degrees) on selected kinematic and physiological variables.

METHODS: Fifty-four sport and physical education students were randomly allocated to one of two training groups (combined uphill-downhill [U+D] and horizontal (H)) and a control group ©. Pre- and posttraining tests were performed to examine the effects of 8 wk of training on the maximum running speed (MRS), step rate, step length, step time, contact time, eccentric and concentric phase of contact time (EP, CP), flight time, selected posture characteristics of the step cycle, and 6-s maximal cycle sprint test.

RESULTS: MRS, step rate, contact time, and step time were improved significantly in a 35-m sprint test for the U+D group (P<.01) after training by 4.3%, 4.3%, -5.1%, and -3.9% respectively, whereas the H group showed smaller improvements, (1.7% (P<.05), 1.2% (P<.01), 1.7% (P<.01), and 1.2% (P<.01) respectively). There were no significant changes in the C group. The posture characteristics and the peak anaerobic power (AWT) performance did not change with training in any of the groups.

CONCLUSION: The U+D training method was significantly more effective in improving MRS and the kinematic characteristics of sprint running than a traditional horizontal training method.

J Strength Cond Res. 2006 Nov;20(4):767-77.

The effects of sprint running training on sloping surfaces.
Paradisis GP, Cooke CB.

Track and Field Unit, Department of Sport and Exercise Science, University of Athens, Athens, Greece. gparadi@phed.uoa.gr

Abstract
The aim of this study was to examine the effects of sprint running training on sloping surfaces (3 degrees ) on selected kinematic and physiological variables. Thirty-five sport and physical education students were randomized into 4 training groups (uphill-downhill, downhill, uphill, and horizontal) and a control group, with 7 participants in each group. Pre- and posttraining tests were performed to examine the effects of 6 weeks of training on the maximum running speed at 35 m, step rate, step length, step time, contact time, eccentric and concentric phase of contact time, flight time, selected posture characteristics of the step cycle, and peak anaerobic power performance. Maximum running speed and step rate were increased significantly (p < 0.05) in a 35-m running test after training by 0.29 m.s(-1) (3.5%) and 0.14 Hz (3.4%) for the combined uphill-downhill group and by 0.09 m.s(-1) (1.1%) and 0.03 Hz (2.4%) for the downhill group, whereas flight time shortened only for the combined uphill-downhill training group by 6 milliseconds (4.3%). There were no significant changes in the horizontal and control groups. Overall, the posture characteristics and the peak anaerobic power performance did not change with training. It can be suggested that the novel combined uphill-downhill training method is significantly more effective in improving the maximum running velocity at 35 m and the associated horizontal kinematic characteristics of sprint running than the other training methods are.

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I am someone who uses contrast overspeed methods as described by Brent McFarlane and used at LSU once or twice a season:

(1) NONE of Glen Mills, Steve Francis, Charlie Francis or John Smith have said that they use overspeed methods (but it does appear that Jamaicans do use contrast methods, but these do not have to involve overspeed).

(2) The scientific literature does not seem to conclude that overspeed itself works, but contrast versions (more dangerous than straight overspeed) do have good results, at least if used sparingly.

(3) I read a paper last year suggesting that contrast methods work by causing UNEXPECTED microtrauma to eccentric muscle fibers. After recovery, this results in an increase in stretch-shortening strength and velocity. In other words, it’s a form of shock training, in Verkhoshansky terminology. BUT repeated use of the training method removes the unexpected part, and it doesn’t work any more.

I’ve seen significant effects for the contrast version after just 1 workout…but for the reasons in (3) above, it doesn’t work after more than about 2 sessions. So I would say that while the girl has seen a quick jump in performance, that improvement won’t continue–and every time you do it, the injury risk increases.

4

Charlie used assisted wind sprints.
Contrast could be Wind sprints and Isorbic or sled.

5

Charlie used assisted wind sprints.
Contrast could be Wind sprints and Isorbic or sled.

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ok ok guys I was referring to running down hills and pullies. Dont be so literal. I Know about the assisted wind but that cant be done unless its windy. He is actually thinking that running down a hill will maker her run faster. IKH I agree. He has a greater chance of hurting her than he does seeing improvement. The risks out weight the small benefits.

7

He said she’s putting on the breaks cause she’s not used to the speed. If she’s running down hill, then putting on the breaks is exactly what she’ll be rehearsing. It’s no wonder shes doing it on the flat. We can post studies done with gym teachers all day that say this or that. Untrained individuals respond differently than trained athletes. Also, at 35m, because of body angle, the breaking pattern that comes with downhill sprinting won’t come into play a whole lot.

If she’s made that much of a drop in her time, then what makes he coach think she’s going to keep making those drops? When does she do her weights? How many and what sort of foot contacts is she doing for plyos?

How much core work is she doing (a-la Charlie’s medball variety)?

Squats can be done on the same day as power cleans, just do them afterwards.

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He said she’s putting on the breaks cause she’s not used to the speed. If she’s running down hill, then putting on the breaks is exactly what she’ll be rehearsing. It’s no wonder shes doing it on the flat. We can post studies done with gym teachers all day that say this or that. Untrained individuals respond differently than trained athletes. Also, at 35m, because of body angle, the breaking pattern that comes with downhill sprinting won’t come into play a whole lot.

If she’s made that much of a drop in her time, then what makes he coach think she’s going to keep making those drops? When does she do her weights? How many and what sort of foot contacts is she doing for plyos?

How much core work is she doing (a-la Charlie’s medball variety)?

Squats can be done on the same day as power cleans, just do them afterwards.

9

I think he just finds stuff on the net or listens to other highschool coaches and goes from there. I have know idea when she does weights or plyos. Im sure he has taught her terrible form during cleans. I just hope he starts to listen before he hurts her. Or before he puts her on the super steep hill he is gradually working towards.

10

There is a neat phenomenon whereby most humans, if you nag them with facts, will just get that much more entrenched in their stupidly held beliefs.

That is: the more you nag him, the LESS likely he is to listen and the MORE likely he is to stick with what he already believes.

Conclusion: You said your piece, you’re not going to change his mind. Now, let it go.

You can’t convince nor fix stupid and he’ll have to learn the hard way. Sadly, his daughter will be the victim. That’s life.

11

The studies quoted above, that appear to support overspeed, in fact do not. The distance tested was 35m. Even for slower athletes, this is almost all acceleration phase. The uphill portion of the training alone could explain the improvement. To test for the contribution of the downhill phase, there should have been a group that did uphill and horizontal, to be compared to the uphill and downhill. A downhill and horizontal group would have been nice to determine if the downhill training actually improved upon horizontal only training even in the absence of uphill training. Unfortunately, these groups were not tested, so it is impossible to seperate out the improvements resulting from the uphill training from those that MIGHT have been derived from the downhill training.

Having said that, I do like contrast training and also think that overspeed accleration to Max V immediately transitioning into a flat flying 20m or so, has benefits. Charlie actually supported this notion from a poster in this group who discussed using the sloped bank of an indoor track to rapidly acclerate to Max V before running on the flat for an acclerated flying 20m or so.

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Well Thats a slight slope on an indoor track built for speed. Not a grassy hill in which she is trying not to fall down.

But Like lyle said I stopped talking to him. Im gonna sit back and watch and see what happens. IT just amazes me what ideas people come up with.

13

Well Thats a slight slope on an indoor track built for speed. Not a grassy hill in which she is trying not to fall down.

But Like lyle said I stopped talking to him. Im gonna sit back and watch and see what happens. IT just amazes me what ideas people come up with.

14

when i was in high school every year we’d have 1 day where we went out on the highway and ran up and down this pretty steep hill. It was steep to the point where you could not sprint up it, only run. We ran up it and down it with about :30-1:00 rest in between.

It was scary as shyt runnin down that hill too because it was very steep. One year (when i was in Jr high) they tried pushing the school bus up that hill (no joke). I honestly think the bus about rolled back down on the kids because our coach won’t tell us what “coulda went really bad”

15

when i was in high school every year we’d have 1 day where we went out on the highway and ran up and down this pretty steep hill. It was steep to the point where you could not sprint up it, only run. We ran up it and down it with about :30-1:00 rest in between.

It was scary as shyt runnin down that hill too because it was very steep. One year (when i was in Jr high) they tried pushing the school bus up that hill (no joke). I honestly think the bus about rolled back down on the kids because our coach won’t tell us what “coulda went really bad”

16

The studies tested maximum speed at 35m, not time to 35m. It was thus a test of maxV. Moreover, the 2006 study had an uphill-downhill, downhill only, uphill only and horizontal only group, and found the greatest improvement in the uphill-downhill group (i.e. contrast training) followed by the downhill only (i.e. overspeed training) group. Since the uphill group did not improve, the improvements were not due to the uphill portion of the combined group.

Forum members such as lkh and UKcheetah have seen substantial improvements with contrast workouts involving overspeed. Charlie has mentioned that, while not generally a safe training method, it may be a good option for someone who has to catch up on missed speed work. He has also described how athletes often achieve a certain wind assisted time earlier in a season, which then sets them up neurologically for running the same time under legal conditions a little later.

I’m not advocating the regular use of overspeed training by the way, just pointing out that the statement that overspeed training has no scientific findings behind it is incorrect.