Continuous running vs. tempo

Expert Discussion Advanced Sprint Training
61

And sometimes people know all the answers, but just don’t understand the question. IN this case the question related to “internationally competitive 44sec” efforts. That for the most part will exclude anything much above 44.6 unless you’re talking a weak year for the event or a tournament such as a Commonwealth Games when the semi and the final will from Games to Games be conducted on the same day, as “sprint coach” advises will be the case in Melbourne next year.

But as you say, different strokes. I’ve always said there are many ways to reach the top in 400m, but there are even more ways to falter.

You do have the power and the guts to be a world class 400m performer. I hope your excellent young coach will also help you with the sophisticated aspects of the game like efficiency and grace. Between the two of you, the package could be red hot. Best wishes Dazed.

62

I didn’t say that they couldn’t. I was debating whether most people who ran in the 44’s did so with a final 100m in sub 12 as KitKat stated. I have no doubt you can read english very well, but perhaps a closer examination was required.

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Thank you.

64

The hypertrophied myocardiaum becomes stiffer, and therefore is unable to relax as much during diastole (systole is the heart contracting, diastole is the heart relaxing).

This would reduce stroke volume as the left ventricle (responsable for ejecting oxegenated blood around the arterial system) relies on left atrial contraction (providing 10-30% of total blood volume), and passive filling(providing the rest of the volume), to get its blood volume.

The hypertrophied left ventricles relaxation is impaired, thus reducing passive filling an reducing overall stroke volume.

however myocardium hypertrophied by exercise, (which is not chemically assisted) do return to its natural thickness during detraining, similar to skeletal muscle.

In sports cardiology the belief is that resistance training increases left ventricular myocardial thickness, whereas cardiovascular training increases the dimension of the left ventricle. This would explain why rowers have some of the largest hearts, studied with echocardiography, due to their large amounts of cross training.

65

I knew I’d :mad: regret entering this . . . A “CLOSER EXAMINATION” IS INDEED REQUIRED . . . ONE MORE TIME . I DID NOT (EVER) “STATE” MOST GUYS WHO RAN 44SEC DID SO WITH A 12SEC FINAL 100M.

WHAT I DID SAY IS THAT “INTERNATIONALLY COMPETITIVE” 44SEC 400 GUYS RAN THE LAST 100M IN 12SEC OR FASTER.

“INTERNATIONALLY COMPETITIVE” 44SEC RUNS ARE THOSE WHICH ARE IN MEDAL CONTENTION. THAT IS WHAT “INTERNATIONALLY COMPETITIVE” MEANS IN MY BOOK. IF YOU ARE NOT GOING FOR MEDALS, IF YOU ARE NOT IN CONTENTION FOR MEDALS, YOU ARE NOT “INTERNATIONALLY COMPETITIVE”.

And I would add that if you are talented and you are not shooting for an international medal, what are you wasting your time for. If you are not planning to win medals, if you are not planning for success there is only one other option you are planning for - underachievement, which, to put it bluntly, is anything but “international success”.

I would trust that everyone on this site would join me in hoping you aspire for - and attain - international success and that the opinions (and advice) expressed is with your best interests at heart albeit that you and your coach must ultimately chart your own course. It is the hope here that you have vigorously considered all the options to help you find the most expedient (safe and direct) path to become “internationally competitive” racing 400m.
kk :slight_smile:

66

If Dazed finds he is in a plateau of 45sec season after season. Hopefully both him and his coach will consider other options!

Btw, before I’m misinterpreted, considering other options doesn’t mean a revamp of your entire program!

67

Ok, you meant medal contenders, it still doesn’t change the fact that your statement

Is inaccurate.

But anyway, I’m not going to argue semantics or statistics anymore.

Running the times that I do in training, in flats under loading, I imagine is not too different from you having your athlete target 23seconds for his multiple 200’s when it took a sub 23 for him to run a PB. And just for the record, before you jump in with “It was 23s or better” I’ve managed to do significantly better than 12.5 for my final 100.
If you have any comments or questions on what I have said regarding WHY things are being done the way they are please bring it up with me or my coach.
No where have I attacked your method, and have gone to great lengths to explain why I may need aditional types of training, yet you have ignored them in order to engage in a petty argument over numbers. I have great respect for you and what you have brought to our sport in our country, and I’ve followed your posts over at “Lactate Threshold” quite closely, but not all athletes are the same and not all will benefit from the same sessions in the same way as those who have come before them. Yes we do some work similar to yours, but some times other things need to be altered in order to address particular areas.

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Dazed, I’d be very interested in hearing what you do in training. We have very few sub 46 runners in the UK and i’d love to see how you got there. Is there a thread you have on the forum where you talk about what you do? Perhaps I have missed it?

Cheers,

TC

69

PJ,

Jeremy went a 12.1 on his last 100m yet every young mid distance coach points to his long running as why he has “more endurance” than the rest (places 2-8). Could you look at his race efforts and model what is going on? I have seen him train and wonder what you think he will do the next few years in order to go for his ultimate goal. My belief is that the long runs are not killing his speed because he is lighter and has a nice elastic bounce to his trail running. Some athletes that don’t do invervals find they break down fast and fatigue rapidly. I like going from 100m to 400m grass runs of 1000-4000m for 400m runners and find that works for me. I like high volume and dense training units but not continuous unless they have a history of easy runs (kids doing XC for years). Perhaps his intense elements will improve and his max speed and speed endurance will shift more and we will see low 43s soon?

70

Is there really that much long distance running though? The only thing I have read (then again people like you and PJ and Dazed have a bit more inside knowledge) is that they occasionally run XC 5ks or shorter during early GPP on the weekend. His model, from looking at the race, looks a lot like MJ’s races to me as he is generally near the front coming off of the last bend, but really puts the gap on at the end, or so it appears.

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I am commenting on what I see not read on forums. I compare also to other models and those proposed by coaches I respect. This spring when I go on a week vaction I will observe training and see what happens in Texas. Davan I have seen his races but need to hear what he is attempting to do. Since I am not a fly on the wall I don’t know inside information. Media comments are not my primary source.

72

Clemson undercover! I like it. Also it would actually be interesting to see exactly what is done… anyone want to offer to be a mole?

73

Jeremy Wariner’s recap:

10.7, 21.0, 31.8, 43.93 Helsinki WC’05
(10.7 + 10.3 + 10.8 + 12.1, 21.0 + 22.9)

11.2, 21.5, 32.2, 44.00 Athina OG’04
(11.2 + 10.3 + 10.7 + 11.8, 21.5 + 22.5)

11.4, 21.7, 32.4, 44.20 Carson NC’05
(11.4 + 10.3 + 10.7 + 11.8, 21.7 + 22.5)

11.1, 21.5, 32.3, 44.37 Sacramento OT’04
(11.1 + 10.4 + 10.8 + 12.1, 21.5 + 22.9)

With such a fast start in Helsinki, it was not possible to run under 12 in the last 100. It’s always a balance problem. At this level, if the last 100 suffers, you can be 99% sure that he was because of a (too?) fast first 100.
His race model looks like the same as MJ (but note that MJ had more speed reserve), but it’s different from Sanya Richards (very unusual model, i’ve posted it in a different thread this summer). Therefore, Hart uses a model according the athete’s individualities.
I believe that 43.7-43.8 was possible with a better race distribution in Helsinki, and of course more peaceful weather during the prelim rounds, which made the efforts even harder.

I’ve never seen Wariner at training, and all i can observe is what he does at warm-up and competition.
However, comparing with MJ’s model, i think Wariner is limited by his speed, and an improvement in speed (100-200m PBs) will ironically improve his 300-400m section thanks to a high speed reserve. A low 21 split at half-way (like MJ in all his 43 races, with best 200m at 19.32, 19.66, 19.71, etc) will be easier for him and will allow a clear sub12 in the last straight.

74

Clemson undercover!

Nope, I will leave that for Palmtag…tracks are open to the public and I may go to the San Antonio area to see Bracken Cave (home to 20 million bats) during the spring, therefore I will stop by Waco. What I like to do is see people train every year and look for the little things.

75

Link to PJ’s info on Sanya

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showpost.php?p=99579&postcount=7

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Nope. Not inaccurate. One hundred per cent accurate. Next time you win a medal in an international championship tournament with a high 44-sec run with a 12.5sec last 100, you can say you’ve proved my assertion to be “inaccurate”.

Unfortunately you seem to hear only what you want to hear, see only what you want to see. And take offence when none is intended This is no way forward Dazed.
If you selected the right options you’d quite possibly have at least an Olympic relay medal in your pocket today.
You say you don’t wish to engage in debating semantics or statistics, yet you have misinterpreted and/or ignored both.

You have a great talent and so does your coach. Nobody has told you that you cannot succeed to some level doing exactly what you are doing now. You certainly seem to be in a better situation now than ever before.

Nobody has said somebody else’s program is the only way forward or offers all the answers. People like me post ideas based on experience gained in the process of getting repeatable, strong outcomes.

The idea in posting is to help newcomers avoid having to reinvent the wheel, revisiting the hundreds of time-wasting, career-wasting errors that we made and that we watched others make before arriving at a distillation of ideas from which can be created a coherent, progressive program which delivers a predictable outcome.
kk :wink:

77

My sense of things is that there’s an element of Devil’s Advocacy going on here in the face of a new program. Unfortunately, successful programs are not arrived at by debate but by a review of what has worked in the past and personal experience for unique individuals and their coaches. The review aspect must be undertaken without the preconception that if it varies from a currently held philosophy, it must have been dumb luck.

78

Charlie,

Can you elaborate on the split runs method? Can you provide an example of a split routine devised to enable an athlete to run a 200m or 400m eventually at high intensity?

79

During the winter season, in the gym (lap = 104y), we do a 3 lap + 2 lap + 1 lap maximal multi-set with a 20-30 sec. recovery (diagonal walk back across gym) between sub-rep. This is a mid season workout, which tapers to 1.5+1.0+.5.

Typically, only our faster&fitter athletes participate in this exercise. For those that didn’t invest fully in the GPP need not apply! However, this has worked with those scholastically ranked athletes competing indoors in 300m and 600m events.

80

Undercover mole? Quips at me?! Are they making fun of my XC carrier…!!!

I’m CONFUSED!!! Clemson don’ be mean :stuck_out_tongue:

Can I work on my max speed, maintain/regain my aerobic strength from cross country, and develop my max strength at the same time? (During the first 5-8 weeks of a 22-25 week program) From what I understand it’s possible, if I work the days correctly.