I’m sure they did. Just as there were witnesses for Bens 300kg squat in the secret weights room in Seoul.
In life I guess you ultimately have to take quite a bit of information on trust . . . but what part of it you take depends on the quality of your source. You either know who to trust . . . or you don’t. Then again you could remain a sceptic - not necessarily a bad thing at all - but in so doing possibly ignore the very information which would benefit you most. 
Why won’t charie tell us about it if it was simply done!!! Is he hiding the great secret of success!? Off course not. It just doesn’t fit in. Although, after reading speed trap and getting to know more about ben I would like to ask a question that might seem silly a bit. did ben do anything behind your back in that period before seoul ( months, weeks or hours ) I don’t know why I have such a feeling after reading speed trap! It just felt like that cause I have done the same before. I was doing my own stuff along with my coaches stuff and my coach never ever knew about it till today! I guess that might explain a lot.
I trust my eyes. I’ve had the opportunity to see MJ train on several occasions (Several sessions in 98 and a week in '00 in the lead up to the games). A friend of a friend was his whipping boy back in the early 90’s. It all reflects whats in his diary, what he presented in the Sydney seminars, what the guys at Baylor do and what Athletics Coach had to say from his first hand accounts.
So everyone. poor schnig42 is waiting to know after all this whether he should do continous running or interval tempo? LOL. We have went way outside the topic here.Both are very intresting to me. I have always asked my self the question of contiuous running, Specially after seeing all the guys improve and do great times while they do tons of slow running. While at the same time I’m very intrested in the topic of speed and special endurance. Some part in my training I have always failed to improve. I really can’t see the straight answers throw the debat. I mean Someone should come out and say OK. We have agreed on this and that and we have disagreed on the rest. I wish
Thanks Charlie
I agree with Dazed and have watched many elite athletes use intermediate work and long continuous runs and have done very well (olympic medals). I have spent months in NC, weeks in LA, and a few days in Texas (Austin and Waco). Also remember that what Clyde presents is much different then what MJ did (my friend went to Baylor as a 100m and was bumped to the 400m). He actually trained with MJ as well.
How is it different and why doesn’t he present what MJ did?
One: Too much for this thread.
Two: He realizes only one MJ in the world and it’s best to share what he does overall and not just one case study. Don’t quote me but I never asked.
I am willing to buy that lots of elite programs do lots of intermediate runs if you can explain how they improve their speed! I assume you see snapshots of their programs and its usually intermediate.
Take Dazed for example: on average a 46sec sprinter with a high 45sec PR. and a high 20sec PR. How does high doses of intermediate work improve his speed?
Well then you may be right. Perhaps MJ never did in training anything to explain his results and my witnesses were imagining things. If you are right, perhaps you can get to the top of the heap with 25 sec 200s and no high quality SE and I am totally wrong in believing that great meet results are reflected in great SE results. We’ll know soon enough.
It might be this:
I stated in an earlier thread years ago many great coaches that have produced many medalists have done it with intermediate work. It all depends on meet schedule, therapy budget, and training design.
For example many light sprinters in the 400 do a lot of longer runs and my belief is that they have that ability because over the years they addapted to it with nice bouncy strides and low bodyweights. I employ Wilber Ross’s 1000 (10x100) x 3 for those running the 400 only if they look “good” and “smooth” when doing 10X100 3x5x200 (100 back to back). Now in the early 1990s MJ did run for the Tampa Clippers under George Steinbrenners team and Coach Ross claims (also many on the team) that MJ did use critical zone program for a season before going to Europe. Not much is talked but the tapes on VHS I witnessed were clear.
Back to runs…I don’t think big fiber conversions will happen to those that are runners because they have good mechanics and they are runners. Many coaches state that split runs with short breaks can increase mmols of lacate at slower speeds while deloading the CNS slightly. Example would be a speed day not doing intense (higher velocity work) but “intermediate work” will improve conditioning at near maximum effort but the slower speeds will breakdown the legs less and keep the athletes ready for the next full speed session.
I see many sprinters fail from constant intermediate work, especially when their lifting is more bodybuilding and other means such as plyos are not used. I have only been in the coaching game for 10 years so I have less knowledge and only worked with international level guys for 4-5 years so I am no expert.
Some very fast runs I have seen as well as some easy days. I do state that some fantastic runs in practice were key signals for improvement and many ran meets as training days so they can get “ready” and you will be surprised how many open meets are actually training days.
Well perhaps frequent 100% performances can only be coupled with intermediate runs? But I still don’t get how MJ can run 19.3 off of 400m training without specific speed work - unless somehow he is getting an absolutely massive rebound affect from tapering down or a number of high quality stimulus competitions before hand.
On another point, in an interview recently here:
http://www.international-ap.com/Interview_Files/tim_benjamin_interview.htm
Tim Benjamine says he his favourite session is 3 x 300m. He is a 20.2 runner. I guess he is doing it will more speed based training bearing in mind the following comment.
Q: Do you think 400m runner’s can benefit from doing XC?
No way the 400m is a sprint, a lot of athletes and coaches forget you need to be able to go through 200m in 21.6 very easily, the main component needed for 400m running is speed endurance.
Programs that rely on meets for prep are usually college based, where low-key meets are plentiful. when you’re on top, you race when you’re already- or the meet promoters will take revenge for the next time around!
If there are no prep meets, what then is the explanation. I’m also curious to hear about the intermediate work you saw in NC. I have some familiarity with the program plan there, as you know, and there is high intensity there!
bumping some of the good older stuff.
Oh thanks John, i was thinking i read for 30min then go to bed, 1.5hrs later… haha, that included the La+ threshold, the last maybe 15 posts on there as-well. Had to re-read some very good posts by Charlie - esp great was the SE - How Intensive tempo AND SE can be seen as different entities due to Recoverys.
I read that, and the SE become all too clear. It’s exactly how i train Endurance athletes.
Previously it was getting confusing how i could implement the CF style of training into 800m +.
However, It’s no different to how i do it anyway.
The confusing part was Intensive tempo limits. I had always thought he meant the Individual segment. Then entire Block of efforts though, that’s a different ball game. Cleared up a lot - Thanks CF 
and thanks John for a great find.
no probs and I found the bit about viewing intensity across the session not the individual reps helpful. It makes sense when you look at how CF described long tempo. As generally prescribed it is low intensity recovery but if you want to increase the intensity then reduce the recovery between reps. The distance & intensity of each rep and the session volume total doesn’t alter but the recovery is what makes the sessions intensity increase basically making it a split run session.
Bold,
What would be a typical week in GPP for an
800m runner using a CFTS approach ?
Interested in this compared to the Lyddiard approach.
GPP for 800m is almost complex.
I believe decent 800m requires a decent aerobic base.
Much has been said about doing tempo - tempo from a strictly Mid-long distance perspective Raises ones Vo2Max. Great for Aerobic work.
You also need a pure Aerobic base also, that means Long Slow efforts. Teaches the Heart to Beat continually. This is why any Great Mid distance runner also does Off season x-country or Road races.
If done correctly, a long slow run actually facilitates recovery.
Coming off Road/x-country requires a transition from that to Track - this is where a good GPP will come in hand.
The off season - Road n x-country require Long slow and Vo2 max tempo.
Gpp introduces SE at the end of that off-season running.
Depending on the natural speed of the athlete, will depend on whether Max speed work also needs to be undertaken.
If your goal is say Sub 1:50 - that’s 55sec 400’s or 27;50 200’s.
Just by playing with the distance and recovery’s in reps and sets can make some very interesting sessions.
Naturally you need some overspeed in there also.
Coming off road/x-country - 400’s for this level athelete will be too fast due to lack of SE.
Instead of doing the classic 3 x 400’s at speed. A good idea is split 200’s. So
200m in 26, 1min rec 200m in Hopefully 26 also.
Rest 10min
Repeat
If you could that 2-3 times per wk. Maybe 2 x wk for 3 wks, then 3 x week for the next 3 wks.
Then add in a 3rd set
So, a week might involve
Mon - SE and weights
Tue - Tempo and 15min slow jog
Wed - SE or Max Speed (if your slow)
Thur - as Tue
Fri - As Mon
Sat - easy tempo / slow jog - maybe 10km easy
sun off
The idea is slowly work up your SE capabilities so that basically you end up almost running an 800m.
Imagine running 4 x 200’s with only 30sec recovery in 26sec…
Or a 400m in 52sec, 30s recovery then 200m in 25sec!
Sure, the 25sec 200m is not FAST - but it sure is after a 52sec 400m. It sounds Intensive tempo at that speed - until you perform it after that 400m - its pure SE.
SEB coe trained his sets similiar. The difference between Seb coe training and CF style is purely the Hi/Low set up arrangement - and CF is not a fan of road runs or x-country.
When i cut my road runs out - i just got slower then following season… That last 200m was simply too hard. Sure you can get to 600m fast - but in a fast 800m, that’s where the race Begins, not ends.
I have hit 600m before, fast, and felt fine, like i could keep going, but, within 20m - out of no-where, im knee deep in mud. A lack of Aerobic base (long runs, not tempo) is the cause. Thats an off season training - you wont be with the field at 600m if you’re still doing 20km runs every sunday come competition time.
GPP for 800m is almost complex.
I believe decent 800m requires a decent aerobic base.
Much has been said about doing tempo - tempo from a strictly Mid-long distance perspective Raises ones Vo2Max. Great for Aerobic work.
You also need a pure Aerobic base also, that means Long Slow efforts. Teaches the Heart to Beat continually. This is why any Great Mid distance runner also does Off season x-country or Road races.
If done correctly, a long slow run actually facilitates recovery.
Coming off Road/x-country requires a transition from that to Track - this is where a good GPP will come in hand.
The off season - Road n x-country require Long slow and Vo2 max tempo.
Gpp introduces SE at the end of that off-season running.
Depending on the natural speed of the athlete, will depend on whether Max speed work also needs to be undertaken.
If your goal is say Sub 1:50 - that’s 55sec 400’s or 27;50 200’s.
Just by playing with the distance and recovery’s in reps and sets can make some very interesting sessions.
Naturally you need some overspeed in there also.
Coming off road/x-country - 400’s for this level athelete will be too fast due to lack of SE.
Instead of doing the classic 3 x 400’s at speed. A good idea is split 200’s. So
200m in 26, 1min rec 200m in Hopefully 26 also.
Rest 10min
Repeat
If you could that 2-3 times per wk. Maybe 2 x wk for 3 wks, then 3 x week for the next 3 wks.
Then add in a 3rd set
So, a week might involve
Mon - SE and weights
Tue - Tempo and 15min slow jog
Wed - SE or Max Speed (if your slow)
Thur - as Tue
Fri - As Mon
Sat - easy tempo / slow jog - maybe 10km easy
sun off
The idea is slowly work up your SE capabilities so that basically you end up almost running an 800m.
Imagine running 4 x 200’s with only 30sec recovery in 26sec…
Or a 400m in 52sec, 30s recovery then 200m in 25sec!
Sure, the 25sec 200m is not FAST - but it sure is after a 52sec 400m. It sounds Intensive tempo at that speed - until you perform it after that 400m - its pure SE.
SEB coe trained his sets similiar. The difference between Seb coe training and CF style is purely the Hi/Low set up arrangement - and CF is not a fan of road runs or x-country.
When i cut my road runs out - i just got slower then following season… That last 200m was simply too hard. Sure you can get to 600m fast - but in a fast 800m, that’s where the race Begins, not ends.
I have hit 600m before, fast, and felt fine, like i could keep going, but, within 20m - out of no-where, im knee deep in mud. A lack of Aerobic base (long runs, not tempo) is the cause. Thats an off season training - you wont be with the field at 600m if you’re still doing 20km runs every sunday come competition time.