# Confused by Short to Long in Structure of Spring Training resource

Hello,

I got the Elite Concepts to help me plan and program for my sports training(Ultimate Frisbee). I’ve started to read through the first part, Structure of Sprint Training, and have come upon the discussion of Short to Long in the “Forum” part of the writing. I am thoroughly confused by a part of the writing. I hope Charlie doesn’t mind that copy part of the writing and paste it in here.

Honestly, I am so confused by this that I’m not even sure where to start with my questions. Could someone give me a concrete workout example of this concept in action?

After reading this over and over, this is my rough understanding. I’m going to use a 150 M run as an example. In the Short to Long approach, I would mentally approach the 150 M run as two parts. 1) a max acceleration component for say 20 M(should it be more? Less?), then 2) maintain whatever speed I can for the last 130 M. I doubt I will be able to maintain the speed generated from my 20 M acceleration so am I correct to assume I will naturally decelerate over the remaining 130M even though I try to maintain ? So in this approach, in this particular workout rep, I got to work on max acceleration and speed in the first 20 M AND also endurance by trying to carry it through the remaining 130 M?

If using the Long to Short approach for this same 150 M run, I would mentally consider it as just one continous run. I would accelerate up to a speed that I can maintain for 150 M. This would mean I did not accelerate maximally in the beginning of this run. Is this the difference between the Long to Short & Short to Long approach for this one particular 150 M run in my example?

Also, What is Special Endurance referring to? I can’t find a definition of it in the Structure of Spring Training guide. Thanks for reading and your help.

[i]Think of long-to-short and short-to-long as acting along a speed curve, moving
up then down again. So you could work on accels out to 20 and then use accel to
20 + maintain, generating enough speed to break the world record in the 600m,
then 30m accel + maintain to break the WR in the 400m, 40 + maintain for the
200m, accel as far a possible, up to 60m for the 100 WR.

So you can see you can work on Speed and SE at the same time with either
approach. The diff is that with L to S you work on accels only out to the distance
you’ll use for the SE at any given time, while with the S to L approach, the accels
are worked on beyond the distance you use for SE (for example accels out to
40m, but 30m + maintain for serial reps over 60m) Thus speed is developed

First, speed endurance is eventually done, but it is done after the required speed
level is in place (perfected in alactic conditions). Thus, the speed endurance is
superior in quality to that which could have been done earlier.[/i]

You can emphasize acceleration and work some endurance at the same time by
accelerating up to the distance you’re ready for and maintaining for the planned
distance. If you do the reps at the exact distance you accelerate to, it’s likely that
endurance will predominate, but, obviously, you can work acceleration to 30 or
40m and work longer with a shorter acceleration (20m + maintain for example).

[i]In both programs, acceleration and speed end are developed from the beginning
and acceleration distances are used to control the speed of execution.
With the long-to-short approach, the main emphasis is on longer runs, so accel
vols start off a bit lower and tend to be concentrated on accel distances needed
for the speed required, ie 20m accel is adequate for any level of 600m run
required (20m accel + maintain).

With the short-to-long approach, the initial accel vols are higher and tend to run
slightly longer than required for the speed end runs at any given time, ie accels
out to 30m simultaneous to speed end runs of 60m, performed as 20m accel +
40 maintain[/i]

Training for sport is not SHORT TO LONG vs LONG TO SHORT.

It is SHORT to SHORT.

Concentrate on short run 0-30m and do tempo 2-3 times a week to build your baseline shape.

Also, I would strongly doubt that any level of maxVelocity/Speed endurance would help you to any extend. Honestly no disrespect, but the vast majority of people who play this “sport” are in terrible shape from my own experience.

Yeah, 150 M was just an example. Most sprint distances are really short and the longest would be 60 M.

No disrespect taken although I guess I would like to know the frame of comparison you are thinking of. At the “elite” level, there are many ex-collegiate athletes from various sports and track that play Ultimate. No ones breaking world records or anything but they are definitely athletic.

Like all sports, the elite level is a small percentage of all people that play Ultimate. So, it is rare to catch elite Ultimate in action.

Anyway, I’m trying to compete at the elite level. So, Short to Short huh?

However, sometimes you have to train slightly beyond the distance used in your sport. For example, if you don’t run 30-60m in training and you fail to improve your max velocity, your 30m time will eventually cap. Who runs faster to 30m - A guy who runs a 7.0 60m with optimal acceleration or a guy who runs 6.5 with sub-optimal acceleration?

[So, Short to Short huh?[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, you don’t have to train like a sprinter on the track building speed endurance. Keep in mind that short to long and long to short describe how the speed endurance is build. With up to 60m MAX distance, you don’t need too much SE.

Thanks for your response. Could you also enlighten me on my original question in my first post?

Can anyone help and answer that particular question?

Regardless you’ll have to start somewhere in you training, and that is with 0-30m + tempo GPP like…

I am not sure we are on the same page here. Ability to repeat short burst(work capacity) and speed reserve might not be the same

Use search fonction there is tons of valuable information in the forum already

Long to short example (start by doing long run with equal times on both)
w1 2x300m 7 min recovery
w2 2x300m 10min recovery
w3 2x300m 12min recovery
w9 200 / 150m 30min recovery

Short to Long
w1 4x3x60m (3R;7S)
progress with that over time then use some SE
80-100-120-150

SPEED ENDURANCE 80-150m
SPECIAL ENDURANCE1 150-300m
SPECIAL ENDURANCE 2 300-600m

Without a doubt you start there. I was simply saying don’t limit yourself to only 30m because acceleration can benefit from greater maxV.

I agree…

Thanks again for the info and for the suggestion of the search function.

I got the Elite Concepts resource because I thought it would structure the information that is out there on this forum. I have a specific question that has arisen from being confused at reading the Structure of Sprint Training. Charlies says in his own work that Short to Long and Long to Short has created plenty of confusion. Well, I’m confused and looking to see if anyone can answer my original question.

Yes Adonail, ability to repeat short burst is important to my sport. More important for me is the quality and acceleration from that burst. I’m trying to improve that. Also, after the burst and if I am in the situation where I need to chase down a pass or a defender, it would be an edge to have higher max velocity.

When you wrote “Short to Long w1 4x3x60m (3R;7S)”

W1 - week 1?
4 x 3 x 60M - 4 sets of 3 x 60 M runs?
3R- what does that mean?
7S - what does that mean?

Finally, my original question. Am I conceptually understanding Short to Long and Long to Short with my explanation below?

After reading this over and over, this is my rough understanding. I’m going to use a 150 M run as an example. In the Short to Long approach, I would mentally approach the 150 M run as two parts. 1) a max acceleration component for say 20 M(should it be more? Less?), then 2) maintain whatever speed I can for the last 130 M. I doubt I will be able to maintain the speed generated from my 20 M acceleration so am I correct to assume I will naturally decelerate over the remaining 130M even though I try to maintain ? So in this approach, in this particular workout rep, I got to work on max acceleration and speed in the first 20 M AND also endurance by trying to carry it through the remaining 130 M?

If using the Long to Short approach for this same 150 M run, I would mentally consider it as just one continous run. I would accelerate up to a speed that I can maintain for 150 M. This would mean I did not accelerate maximally in the beginning of this run.

Is this the difference between the Long to Short & Short to Long approach for this one particular 150 M run in my example?

I would say that the difference in the S-L and L-S would not be described in one specific run, but in how you got to that stage. The terms are a description of the progression you will take over many sessions and weeks.

S-L: 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, …
L-S: 600, 500, 400, 300, 200, …

Well I am trying to help you but It seems like your understanding is at his beginning.You are making an analysis from a very narrow view. I understand your situation, but this information won’t help you much in your sport. Better to keep things simple and effective.

The difference in both philosophy can only be expressed over time in the week to week progression.

W1 - week 1?
4 x 3 x 60M - 4 sets of 3 x 60 M runs?
3R- what does that mean? 3min rest between reps
7S - what does that mean? 7min rest between sets

Finally, my original question. Am I conceptually understanding Short to Long and Long to Short with my explanation below? NO

In the Short to Long approach, I would mentally approach the 150 M run as two parts. 1) a max acceleration component for say 20 M(should it be more? Less?), then 2) maintain whatever speed I can for the last 130 M. I doubt I will be able to maintain the speed generated from my 20 M acceleration so am I correct to assume I will naturally decelerate over the remaining 130M even though I try to maintain ? So in this approach, in this particular workout rep, I got to work on max acceleration and speed in the first 20 M AND also endurance by trying to carry it through the remaining 130 M?

The progression from start/acceleration to maxVelocity to speed endurance is seen over time, not in one race! You start 4-6weeks doing accel and tempo only. Then you add some 60m with incomplete recovery to build speed endurance. Your 20m+MAINTAIN is speed endurance mostly build during indoor 60m

Also NEVER EVER TRY TO DO SOMETHING YOU CAN’T DO. If for example you would do a race like in your exemple 150m 20m+MAINTAIN and feeling yourself slowing down too much and technique is breaking down by the 60m line then STOP! Quality is a HUGE EMPHASIS on speed days

If using the Long to Short approach for this same 150 M run, I would mentally consider it as just one continous run. I would accelerate up to a speed that I can maintain for 150 M. This would mean I did not accelerate maximally in the beginning of this run.

In both philosophy you would run maximal longer distances, just not in the same time of the year. As I told you in my last post, the speed of the run would simply be limited by the time you have to rest between those runs. Long to short start with longer distances and incomplete recovery doing the same time on both runs

Is this the difference between the Long to Short & Short to Long approach for this one particular 150 M run in my example? NO

Thank you. That was very helpful. I am indeed a beginner and will continue to learn so that I can understand these concepts.

For now, I’m going to O lift 5 days a week. Sprint short distances (15 M accel 3 x 4, starts) twice a week and then build up on that. Will do tempo runs twice a week as well. 100 M x 10 -15 mixed in with core and ball work.

Just run lots of 10,20,30m sprints with full recovery (2-5min) working on mechanics and relaxation. Use some of the ideas from the GPP Essentials such as hill sprints over 10-30m and weight training. Simple recovery tempo will help with the conditioning along with lots of medball and general strength circuits.

Hi there,

Do you suggest I reduce/eliminate the O Lifting for now? Should I just focus on the running? My strength numbers right now are:

Bodyweight: 185
Olympic Back squat: 310-320 max
Clean and Jerk: 210
Snatch: 150