cleans vs. squats for a teen

Hi, I have been reading about cleans and it seems to be an exercise of choice by several for increasing speed. I am helping a 14 year old that wants to run a fast 40. He also really needs to pack on muscle because he is playing football. So I am looking for some weight exercises that will build some strength in his legs and hopefully help with his speed. Yesterday we did squats and lunges with light weight. He said he wasn’t sore at all the next day, so I guess I may have been a little too cautious, but better safe than sorry.

What do you all think about cleans for a 14 year old? Any other exercises come to mind to build strength and explosiveness in his legs?

Thanks for any help.
Curt

You have to look at the learning curve. Some people (some that I train) just can’t look good doing a clean. I think Ben had this problem to?? Some of the pro hockey guys that come to see me, I refuse to burn three or four sessions teaching these lifts (cleans and snatches). I have heard all the stories about people learning quickly and that’s fine and all, but still I walk into countless weight rooms across the country and kids are butchering these lifts that are so easy to learn?? So bad are these lifts that they athletes are getting hurt. There are other things you can do with the same out comes as cleans. Choosing which lift to do depends on lots of things here. I think squats and cleans have completely different places in training. They are not the same! What I am getting at is a regular down and up squat cannot match the speed of a clean. The sheer weight of a clean cant match that of the squat. Different modes.
Dan

I have issues with him needing to pack on weight. More weight at that age…pffft! Work on speed and strength and the weight that he puts on naturally as a result will be functional weight, not useless weight that will impair his palying football later on due to injury or major muscle imbalance (which of course leads to injury).

If there is someone that can teach him proper power cleans, then that is great. He will still have to do squats so that his cleans improve.

h curtis,
I am a strength coach at Fountain Valley High School in Southern California. I work with the freeshman and sophomores. I teach just about everything. As stated alot at CFS.com, the olys can be tough to teach. It takes a lot of patience. I think it takes a few months of practicing to fully understand what they are doing. Well, maybe not fully. Start off the floor! Never underestimate simpler exercises to achieve your goals. Do more abs and lower back early on, and one legged when they have experience under their belts. I favor box squats over hang cleans.

See, I like that! No exercise is the end all be all. I love the O-lifts, but there are other modes to achieve your goals. Do what fits you!

Dan

I agree that it takes a few months to get the hang of things. However, I have almost all of my athletes learn their cleans from boxes as well as from the floor. What exercise are you talking about that can be done “one legged”?

Curtis,

The difficulty of teaching Oly. lifts is often overestimated by lazy strength coaches. Yes, they will take time to learn, and even longer to master, but no longer than any other complex, multi-joint movement.

From my experience, the majority of technical issues stem from coaches pushing there athletes to use heavier weight too quickly.
Bad habits become ingrained and this movement pattern often leaves to injuries down the track.

Start light! There is no need to have your athletes using super heavy weight for the first few weeks of training.
Light weight will elicit the same rapid neuromuscular adaptation anyway - take advantage of this.

In relation to squats: don’t get caught up with ‘squatting deep’. This is gym junkie bullshit.

Squat as deep as your athlete can maintain a neutral spine. The ass should not tuck in at the bottom of the movement. Over time, flexibility will improve and range of movement will be increased. Don’t push it, it’s not worth it.

Per cleans: they will take some time to teach correctly, but this learning process can be helped by other ‘precursor’ exercises.

If they haven’t done them before I will usually teach cleans by starting with dead lifts then progressing this to clean pulls. After they get used to these lifts, I’ll move them up to power cleans.

Power cleans are terrific as they promote full triple extension through a similar movement as cleans, without the temptation of limited ROM.
Once the athlete is correctly performing power cleans, then I’ll move them up to full cleans.

The clean should be a power clean with a dip. That means full triple extension and then then dip. If this isn’t working go back to power cleans.

Remember the aim of cleans is to produce as much as force as possible. This does not neccesarily mean lifting heavy weight. The clean is supposed to be a fast lift, there is no point draging the weight up slowly.

The key is to be patient with lifting and strength will follow.

If triple ext. is the goal why not a jump shrug or a high pull? Takes ummm…2 seconds to teach not 2 days? Thoughts? Why waste sessions?

Dan

My friend was working with a ton of US Olympic athletes in Lake Placid a couple of summers ago. They start them with the RDL shrug and if they can’t get that down they don’t move them on to hangs or full power cleans. He had someone that was doing RDL shrugs since the year before. (I’m not sure how relavent the clean was to this athletes sport or how badly they wanted to learn it.)

I would personally make sure the kids can squat as deep as they can “safely” go. Again ab and core work as well. As far as the weight gain goes, at 14 tell them not to worry about it. Get their lifting techniques perfected first.

Full clean ultimately allows more weight to be lifted, and more force to be produced.

That said, both of these exercises could be a legitimate part of a strength program.

Cleans are not neccesarily the be all and end all of power exercises.

A friend of mine recently spent some time with the S. African Springboks (Rugby Union), had the opportunity to sit in on one of there S&C sessions. Apparantly, they were doing power cleans with 30kg. Not what I would expect from Rugby coaches!

The first thing that came to my mind when I read your question was a post of mine from about 9 months ago when I had a question about proper snatch form. At the time, James Smith got to asking questions about my training overall and he had some excellent advice about training for younger athletes. I took the liberty of going back and copying some of what he wrote so you can see what he recommends about young athletes and OL and how they should be training. Personally, I find his recommendations to be excellent and highly germane to your situation in training a 14 year old for football.

Have your S and C coach email me so I can explain to him/her why the VAST MAJORITY of high school athletes (especially freshmen and sophomores) lack the physical preparedness in order to safely, effectively, and efficiently perform cleans and snatches.

Here is where the distinction must be made; the VAST MAJORITY of high school athletes (who are not part of an OL club) do not have an adequate amount of time in weight training classes to adequately spend on the proper instruction of the OL’s. Alternatively, if the coach opts to instruct/employ the OL’s than valuable training time is lost which could otherwise be more effectively utilized to learn much simpler lifts, yet just as, if not more, effective at building functional/structural adaptations and muscular coordination (e.g., all major compound lifts and medicine ball throws)

I speak from experience, when I took of the S and C position at my school all of the PE classes and sport teams utilized cleans, and about 99% of all the students exhibited SHIT form. The same is true amongst schools across the US.

These S and C coaches get excited because they either seem some fourteen year old Chinese phenom on an Iron Mind training hall tape, or get brainwashed by the NSCA and then proceed to have entirely ill prepared young boys/girls start performing OL’s.

Moving on, at six feet/one hundred fifty lbs the last thing you need to focus on is building a big snatch. You need to pack some muscle mass on your tall frame and work on increasing your relative and core strength. Leave your speed/RFD training to the field/track and med ball work.

In order to yield any appreciable athletic carryover from the snatch, in my view, the trainee must have already developed certain levels of GPP (e.g., muscle cross-section, inter/intra muscular coordination, relative strength, core strength, dynamic flexibility, mobility, etc.)

The snatch, is inherently speed strength dominant and certainly demands many of the above listed qualities. However, it is not a lift, in my view, which is optimal to teach these qualities, as the risk of injury is to great for trainees with low levels of the abilities listed above.

And speed strength and absolute strength are highly interrelated. And as you must know, very view young athletes possess high degrees of absolute strength. Thus, as max strength increases, so will speed strength, so long as a certain volume of speed/RFD work is being performed (on the track/med ball, etc).

To throw in the OL’s before certain levels of GPP are obtained, is a HUGE mistake in my view.

People in the west must realize that most of the OL lifters from eastern Europe, Russia, and Asia spend years developing GPP before any significant loads are used in the OL’s.

Alternatively, in the west, we like to get our 14 and 15 year olds performing OL variations when there pre-existing levels of GPP are complete SHIT! Subsequently, we are left to observe an exhibition of horrible and dangerous technique in school gyms all across America.

If I can single arm dumbbell curl more than a trainee is capable of 1RMing a snatch, then I have news for you, that trainee is exercising futility by attempting to raise his/her 1RM in the snatch. He/she should instead be focusing on raising the motor abilities which I listed at the beginning of this post.

If you have the opportunity to perform other lifts, than I strongly encourage you to focus on the more simplistic yet effective lifts.

Squat (front, back, high bar, low bar, box, etc)
DL (RDL, SLDL, Conv, Sumo, Dimmel)
GM
Pulls (high, low, snatch grip, clean grip)
Back Extensions
Step ups
Lunges
Presses
Rows
Pull Ups/Chin ups
Dips
Push Ups
Shrugs
Tons and Tons of abdominal work

As far as sets and reps I recommend that you switch up the parameters so as to create a constant influx of new training stimuli.

Emphasize perfect form and prioritize this ahead of how much weight you are lifting.

For the most part I would advise you to stay within the 6-15RM range (except for abdominals) and maintain an inverse relationship between sets and repetitions.

Eat every meal like it is your last and keep it clean. Eat every 2-3 hours. You can lift all the weights in the world, but if you don’t up the caloric intake you won’t put on any appreciable amount of muscle mass.

Curt,

All of these coaches are right in what they are saying and there are a million ways to approach your training plan. Cleans are a great exercise but they can also be hard to learn and not a must in all training programs. So i can just give you advise on what I like to do with my guys, but know this is not the only way.

If i am teaching an athlete the clean we simply block ten minutes out of our workout to work on technique every time we train. once that ten minutes is up we move to the rest of the workout. I try not overwhelm them, just feed them little bits at a time to eventually make a whole. After three or four times attempting this I can usually tell if the athlete is going to get it or not. The i procede from there. good luck

Some times it helps if you think outside the exercise in terms of what you want out of a practice session. Meaning, I heard triple ext……well, there are lots of exercises that teach that. What else do you think cleans provide in your training? Think in terms of what you want not in terms of exercises. Now, if what you want out of that particular workout is met through cleans efficiently and safely, then that’s the exercise for you. However, that exercise could be poison for others.

Dan

Wow, what great information. Thanks for all the replies. Yes, he can learn cleans from me. I have been a little out of practice, but am going to see my old coach and get a refresher. He was a competitive O. lifter as are his two sons. Pretty darn good I might add.

Anyway, I think I will ease into O. lifting with him and just keep it light and simple. He is very coordinated and I feel will catch on pretty well.

Thanks once again for all the replies. I am not used to teaching someone so young and want to make sure I take is slow enough and certainly don’t want any injuries.

If any of you can think of lifts that you feel are as explosive as a clean I am all ears. I know a snatch if one fast movement, but I always felt that was harder for me.

Thanks,
Curt

I am thinking of what will teach explosive lifting to hopefully help is 40 and make him stronger all around. If there are simpler ways of doing this, I am open for suggestions. Nothing wrong with throwing some ideas around.

Thanks,
Curt

I did want to mention the kid has amazingly flexible calves. He can go down as far as anyone I have every seen and his heals are flat on the ground. Not sure if he should always go that deep when doing these?

As I said, the main risks involved in squatting stem from a range of movement that is too deep.

In order to minimise stress on the back, a neutral spine must be maintained at all times.

Look for your athletes ass tucking in underneath the body at the bottom of the movement. This is a tell tale sign he/she is squatting too deep and is not flexible enough to handle the range of movement. :wink:

Thanks, I will check.

It is interesting the difference in showing someone and to do it yourself. I was trained to do these properly, but never had to worry about going too low due to my calves. Now I have someone I am teaching that is very flexible in that area and it is new to me.

Thanks again.

Herb,
Lunges and all the variations for 1 leg. Normal, step ups, back leg elevated, while standing on two plyo boxes. Holding dumbells or barbell on back. Knee over ankle, good upright posture. I have a lot of kids who can’t pick up anything off the floor without a rounded back, so that is why I said floor. It may be a light deadlift or trap bar DL. I then go from the hang because the clean from the floor is hard for them. The hang clean comes easier provided they have the shoulders in front of the bar, don’t do a reverse curl, jump, elbows out, etc. I’m in the middle of hell week, and my brain is foggy. Sorry for not clarifying.

Objective: kid @14 who wants to run a faster 40(increase b.weight also but lets look at speed first)

ok from what we all know the first 0-20m is pure strenght,explosive strenght agreed?

so if you want to increase speed over this distance what to look at!

1-the most important thing i would look at before anything else is the set-up of the athlete from his first step.educate the athlete correct clearence just the same as cluching a car to get it moving.****YOU WOULDN’T BELIEVE HOW MUCH AN ATHETE CAN IMPROVE OVER THIS DISTANCE WITH TECHNIQUE ALONE

2-when the athlete is sound from the first step onwards i would then look at strenght.personally at this age i would be more inclined to use bodyweight exercises,med ball exercises/throws and plyros.as the athlete progresses with age/maturity i would start to introduce weight training.

now we could have an argument here stating that you must have strenght to perform starts properly etc but this kid is 14 and his learning curve would be excellent to teach so why not teach sound stuff first.