Coming into week 5 i am beggining to ponder deload/testing. My planned deload is week 6. Keeping all training elements just droping back 20% volume on all elements. Mr Smith did the same as far as deload. Though for testing, he held his next 2 wks of running volume the same as deload week and tested 4M and 1M on tues and fri respectively, on the 2nd week after deload, only testing these runs, no other training elements. Tues of test week he dropped M pace session and conducted 4M tt and fri he test 1M and proceeded in to threshold inervals with normal deload volume. He did not increase increase training paces of his client in lou of his TT’s. Instead proceed to add volume. After these tests he loaded for 1 more week, deloaded 20% volume again, and reloaded for 3 more weeks to finish off his clients 12 weeks of training prior to shipping out. Im sure he tested at the end (probably pst) but does not make that clear if or how he went about it.
I was curious to your thoughts on how i should go about testing/deload myself and resuming training following. Keep to the plan and continue adding volume over the next 6 weeks cycle holding the same training paces, the only problem i see with this is my current training paces are pretty slow and by the end of the next 6 week cycle my sessions will be quite long at 40-50mpw, with for example the long run being 10-14M with my current training paces that would be a 2+hr session. Not to mention my other sessions will have built quite a good amount of volume as well. JD and smith suggest (generally) not to increase training paces and volume concurrently over the same cycle. Either build volume for several weeks with prior training pace, or use higher training paces (based off new pbs) for several weeks so the body has opportunity to positively adapt. Was curious as what your thoughts were on all of this.
Sample training log from runner who ran 1.5M in 8min 40 sec, 4M in 24 min 50 sec - these are approx split times from 5M and 10k races,
Would have run 14M in around 1 hour 38 mins.
Was aiming to race 5miles close to 30 mins (managed 30.30) , 10k near to 38 mins (managed 37.50) - essentially to be able to race at a sustained 6 min miile pace.
All distances in miles.
Continous runs at steady pace according to weather, how athlete felt after work, so in target range of easy to strong pace.
Intervals programmed at paces one or 2 levels above target race speeds.
No HRM, No lactate measurements, Goal 1 : maximise steady state mileage, Goal 2: Run intervals of 400-1500m at quicker than race paces
M 5.5
T 6X500 (800m pace)
W 7
T 4x400, 800, 1500 (800 to 3k pace)
F Rest
S 12
S 5
M 2
T 9
W Rest
T 1M time trial 5min 43 sec
F 7 fartlek
S 6x1000 (5k pace)
S Rest
Rest periods were walk 200m or walk/jog 400m - around 3 mins.
Intervals were with a running club group so could not be personalised to particular times or HRM recovery but these are a fairly common approach for a group session.
There were a few of us running these sort of times - guess you would describe us as reasonably serious recreational runners.
Interesting.
So generally the same rest was taken for all various paced intervals?
How would you use HRM in terms of rest for these various paced intervals - 120bpm rec HR for all intervals- ?
As well, how would one go about determining pace for a session that one does not have a recent TT or race?
Say one just had a recent 5k race time. How would you go about determining (800m pace, 1M, 3k, 10k ect ect)? Tables such as JDs?
Yes, rests were the same for all types of intervals. 120 bpm is considered an equivelent recovery period.
If you are taking a lot longer rest then run the intervals more slowly. Eg if you can run 4x1M in an average of 6mins with 3 mins recovery you are close to being able to run 4M in approx 24 mins in a race type situation. If you need 10 min rests then your race endurance pace is not ready yet.
In reference ti your sample training log entries above:
Im assuming this was the end of a 3:1 loading scheme or something close. Did these interval sessions progress in anyway over say 3 wks loading in volume or intensity . Or did volume stay the same throughout the cycle for interval sessions and continuous runs volume increased throughout load weeks, then test and increase interval pace next loading cycle sortof thing
Used approx 3:1 load:deload. Sometimes when busy at work or bad weather would just take 3-4 days of complete rest rather than a 1 week deload.
Generally deloaded by reducing weekly mileage and running 4 days rather than 5.
Interval volumes were generally 3000 to 4000m per session. (4x1000), (5x800), (4x400, 800, 1500) and so on. I found 4000m volume ok for longish reps (800 - 1200) but once dropping to 600m reps or less would be closer to 3000m session volume. Probably because the shorter intervals are run faster, so create greater cardio stress and impact on legs if using a track.
By the way - you might find a few races over 5k-10k are better than solo time trials. Provide a mental focus and physical target. Plus nobody wants to be overtaken by a bloke dressed as a banana. Or hear some of the times run by people old enough to be a runner`s father.
Ha. I certainly dont want to get out raced by an old bloke like your self, but it happens. More like a demoralizer at my current fitness. Btw how is everything coming along with your running.
It seems you stick to the same volumes for interval sessions even with such an array of possible training paces (400m- 10k pace) for intervals as well as same rec. This is interesting, so length of rep and pace is all you generally play with? If so i like it for simplicity, i tend to overcomplicate things ,it seems, the more i learn, ironically.
Yes, variation was mostly length of rep and pace.
Rep distances were mostly 400m to 1000m with some 1milers.
Paces were usually 3k, 5k, 10k. Some small bits of 800m and 1500m pace.
Most runners were aiming to race over 5k to 7 miles hence we trained at or slightly quicker than these paces.
So, Not that many training paces. Interestingly most people`s speed per 400m lap was pretty similar over these range of paces so that actually makes iit simple.
As an example.
Your 1.5m selection target programme could be aiming towards running reps of between 400 and 600 at 85 sec pace per lap.
Your 4m selection programme could be running reps between 800 and 1m at 90-95 sec pace.
A simple application of multi pace theory.
So no need to get hung up with large variations of distances and speeds.
We never did stuff like 10x400. Boring. Reps are too short to be specific to any of your distances of with possible exception of 1.5m selection run.
As for variations on extensive tempo based on sprint paces. Key point is extensive tempo is recovery for sprinters, intervals are speed work for you. Fundamental difference. And, why even bother about the arithmetic of 65-65% of something - you need to be able to run 6 minute miles - that`s it.
I got the idea of using ext tempo as support for my race goals from CF. In several posts ive seen him recommend ext tempo to athletes saying they needed to perform a 2-3mile TT for their sport tryout (i belive soccer and basketball come to mind).
About a 1.5 ago i randomly went on an sprint stint for about 4-6 weeks (closer to 6 from what i remember). It started one day with me and a friend kicking a soccer ball around and we decided to see how fast our 100m was (friendly comp). I measure out 100m with a wheel and there we went. After acouple of warm up strides i ran a 13 flat stop watch on his mark(maybe a little under from what i can remember). This was barefoot and in thick higher grass on uneven surface. So for about the next 4-6wks i ran tempo (1000-2000m)~2-3 days a week and speed (alot of accel work) 1-2 days as well as lifted (i was lifting on and off already). I tested 1.5 (2-3times) and my times were droping by ~ 1min every 2-3 wks i tested. The improvments im sure had todo with the fact i was not doing any running for a long time prior except the occasional recreational soccer/football/b ball but im sure it was a bit of both. And i can tell you with no prior sprint training only distance, i built up to ~2000m of tempo over 4-6 weeks and these did not exhaust me in the least. They served ther purpose rec/aerobic work.
Using the 13s 100m for ext tempo. 100m reps around 20s is a ~5.20M pace. So i thought using something like this on an easier day maybe one day a week would serve several purposes as rec, acclimate legs to moving these race specific speed,further aerobic work ect.
Hence these are my reasons for considering tempo, CF, brief positive past experience with specific race distance, and to supplement my continuous easier much slow speed runs. Though this time around if i did use ext tempo, this ti.e around i would use higher volumes.
It sounds like this worked for you. Using ext tempo as a recovery session rather than as a hard interval session is ok. Pure endurance runner would recover via an easy 3 mile type of run. Some describe this as junk miles but tempo as you describe is perfectly valid.
Link to most physical req standards at bud/s. Missing some things such as written tests (dive physics ect) as well as pool comp and other things but this is general standards. I believe some of these are old standards for minimums, though they are still pretty close from what i remember. http://navyseal.s5.com/requirements.html
10/27 tues
Finally found a pool! 2$ for the day which is GREAT. Though prices increase come spring/summer. But also have price, 20$/month for pool and all facility perks (gym, various courts ext) which is not bad as well.
*pool felt heavenly
*swim has been coming along faster and better than expected. And havent even strapped on fins yet. Easy/steady pace swim is already pretty much passing for 1mile swim in first phase.(even without wearing fins). And i definitely could have kept this up for 2miles easy.
Later i will do M pace intervals
12am
5 x 1M ri 2min
(10.10 - 10.50)
got off late from serving at bistro. Ran these slower because tired. Get to sleep in though.
As well 6x ( push up x 16, pull up x 4, flr x 50s, 8 counts x 7, flr x 50s)
Sets spread throughout day
Imo, I feel like distance runners do use ext tempo of a sort, but just call them strides. Example 10 x 100m strides. Not done as fast as sprinters obviously because they have higher speed, but approx the same relative intensity.
Old bloke thanks for taking so much time on this thread.It’ interesting seeing the ideas and principles applied to something other than track.
Ami, your times improved not just because of the tempo but also because of the simple structure you put into place that was classic high and low and you did not over think any of it.
It’s reasonable for people to come on here and ask complicated questions about training but often people seem to miss the most basic things about warm up, simple structure of running fast and alternating that with something( tempo) that facilitates speed acquisition.
I know I am over simplifying the process but you have drawn your own conclusions yet 4 weeks ago you were questioning tempo.
1pm
Pool
Fartlek 1000-1400yd lost lap count (200yd easy, 200yd hard)
~32min
3pm
6x (decline push up x 48, lat lunge x 12, pull up x 10, sll x 15ea, abs x130)
Iso back ext x 4 x 50s, bb shrug x 2 x 30-40 x 145#, band ext rotation x 50 ea
9pm
1 mile easy, dynamic stretch, strides x 2
5 x 400m @ 1M pace
(1.46, 1.51, 1.47, 1.46, 1.46)
1 mile easy, stretch
10/29
Thurs
6x ( push up x 16, pull up x 4, flr x 50s, 8 counts x 7, flr x 50s)
Sets spread throughout day
2pm
Pool
200m easy
4 x 100m (all out) 5min rec
10min rest
3 x 100m all out 5 min rec
(All 100s were 1.39-1.42 except 1st one was 1.46)
Abs x 260r
*tues/wed was feeling fatigued/short tempered/ zoning out throughout day. Feeling alittle better today. Plan is to finish out the week and then deload next week dropping all volume about 20% so basically last weeks training. Depending on how i feel towards the end of deload week, i may keep running volume the same as deload for an extra week and test at the end.
1mile easy, dynamic stretch
3 x 1000m @ T pace (5.40) ri 2.30
(5.35, 5.33,5.42)
1mile walk home
*planned on do 4 x1000m. Legs felt super heavy. Hr well higher than normal, evem on warm up jogg. Rest is in order. all signs are pointing to overdoing it. Signs began at beggining of week. Resting hr this morning was a good 10bpm higher than normal. Plan of action is to take the rest of the day and weekend off, then deload. So im dropping calisthenics session today, and easy cals and long run tomorrow. May go on a very easy 2-3 mile jogg sat or sunday, may help move rec along.
Last night hr was high (76% avrg) for a 2mile easy run in 24.30. Compare this too hr reading i got 2 weeks ago during saturday long run, 4.3M in 48.36min, hr avrg 73% and fatigue is obvious.
Essentially heres my plan moving forward:
Sat off
Sun (today)- maybe an easy run of a couple miles
Starting 11/2 mon i am dropping back to week 3 (2 steps back essentially) as a deload with some minor changes. Will keep swim volume the same as last week, as well as drop tuesdays M session and just make this an easy run. Below is what will look like. All calisthenics sessions will be same as week 3.
Mon- hard cals, 2M wu/cd, 3x 800 @ 3k pace
Tues- easy cals, easy run 2-3M, 1600yd swim easy
Wed- hard cals, 1M TT, 2M wu/cd, fartlek swim 1000yd
Th- easy cals, easy run 2-3M,swim 3x3x100yd (all out)
Fri- hard cals, 5k TT
Sat- easy cals, 4.3M easy run
Sun- rest
*the only problem with this is if ive buried myself deeper than i thought and need more deload time. Expamle two weeks of above deload and testing in the 2nd week instead of 1st.