Prob due to hormonal differences.
I believe another reason why a FEW of the exceptional 400m people don’t SEEM to have great 200m speed is that they just don’t run the shorter distance often enough to really find out just how fast they are. I believe that if many of them were to test themselves a bit more regularly at 200m they would prove to be much faster. Of course when your bread winning event is the 400m you tend to stay away from other events.
I agree that too many people view the 400m as a middle distance event and don’t do enough true speed work. Of course your approach could depend, as stated earlier, on the background of the athlete.
Charlie, based on your vast experience,
do you believe its true say that
it´s “easy” to a 400m guy switch to short distances or the opposite ?
Dont be so quick to dismiss distance work. Sanya Richardson credited 30 minute runs that she did in her early season training. for a big part in her improvement. They can be useful. I think you just need to make sure you dont go overboard with them. I am not a big proponent of them but they do serve a purpose .
Depends how hard you run your aerobic runs: on the anaerobic threshold or well below it. Also depends when and where you site such runs, and how often you do them and when you stop doing them. Also it’s worth considering that whatever you do to enhance the endurance-end (any sort of endurance) of your performance will impact adversely (the extent varies on the factors mentioned above) on the speed-power end of your performance spectrum over 400m.
Agreed . I am not a big fan of distance running for 400 runners. I have our kids do some in the summer this would be pre GPP for us, (US college) usually 20min runs sometimes 30 depending on the kid. I like them to go out for 15min and come back in 12-13 min. This is usually done only once a week, maybe twice in a week every 4th week. I like Charlies grass tempo also. Once school starts we do more grass tempo and our distance runs greatly decrease. By Nov-Dec they are completely out of our program.I believe Thomas Schonlebe used some distance running in the early part of his training, during his career.
Like you say, depends to some extent on the individual (and on individual circumstances).
A young woman I coached to go 50.2sec had a natural bias toward endurance rather than power. We worked hard to improve her weaknesses but we also worked more toward her strength which I think is key to succeeding with any individual.
Anyway she did the occasional 30min run during the general prep and then it dropped down to 15-20mins. The runs were meant to be additional steady tempo to keep her lean and to help flush waste (inc lactic a) from the previous track or gym session. Trouble is that in her desire to improve on the road to Seoul 88 she started to make these 3-morning-per-week runs into lactic threshold efforts which eventually came down to 12 mins and she ran the course on the footpath (concrete) around her neighbourhood. I couldn’t figure why I switched greater emphasis to fast track sprints and she did not improve at all. But that was a big part of the answer.
Once I realised that was what she was doing, I dampened things down in that department and it wasn’t too long before her lifting and her sprinting improved.
But she did maintain the long, easy runs (usually for 15mins) right through the European season where she did a pb of 50.9 in Cologne GP. By time to got to Seoul she had run PB 200 in 22.8 and reached the Olympic final.
It’s hard to know precisely what thread of the performance fabric has been more crucial than any other. I think the runs helped her stay lean, took some stress away from between the ears, helped her back-up in training so the volume if not the intensity of the training was improved. She also recovered well between rounds in Seoul, although that may have had more to do with her special endurance ability by then. Who really knows? Maybe she’d have run faster without those aerobic runs. Maybe slower. The 400m remains mysterious in that sense. kk 
Your last paragraph is spot on. I think for women it does help keep them lean, also they seem to benefit mentaly. I can see the problems you would have not knowing how fast she was doing her runs. Maybe secretly she wanted to be an 800 runner.(just kidding).The thing with the 400 is how much distance is to much and how much speed is to much. and how to fit it all in without killing your runner.On another note I was going thru the lactate threshold thread,and I was reading the list of workouts that D. C. did prior to Major comp in 93 ( I am assuming WCs) There were 10 key sessions you mentioned. Were there any meets in this time frame16-6-93 to 4-7-93. If not did you have a series of meets leading into this time frame or did you just do GPP then transfer into a pre comp phase. I think you may have stated that you had a 4 week transition phase from gpp to this June/July phase. But I have read so much of your stuff that i am probably mistaken.
No comps, just a pre-departure 400m competition trial to prove fitness to the national authorities before they’d give him his ticket to ride. This was all done during the winter by the way. But when you know what you have to run to have a chance of winning (ie: 44-low), then that informs the level at which you must run during training. You can’t be too far from the sharp end. If you’re a male training at a comfortable 48sec model, why would you be shocked when you run 46sec-47sec fully peaked up and get eliminated first round?
Understood. Next question. I have used the 300 rest30 sec + 150 work out several times. What would be an appropriate come thru 300 time for a 47-48 guy. We usually came thru in 37-38 range depending on the runner. Is this about right or should they go a little slower.
The model for a female 50sec flat 400 is 37-flat for 300m. I don’t think you could expect your males to run 37 and then run 11 for the final 100m. It’s a huge ask. I’d be trying to develop their speed capacity to cope with something faster over 300m and then also develop their efficiency and lactic tolerance to be able to finish on over the last 100m. A really well conditioned elite male is going to have trouble running 12sec or a tick under for the last 100m. I’d be working on your average good guy running closer to 14sec for the last 100, which tells you what they need to do for the opening 300m (ie, closer to 34-35sec).
I think you may have misunderstood We have males capable of running 47.5 -48.0 When we do the WO you talked about in some of your threads, the 300+150 off of 30 sec rest btwn 300and 150 Should we tempo thru the 300 in 37-38 We usually run the 150 off of 30sec rest in 17.5 -18.5 Is this ok or should I slow down the 300 so they can run the 150 faster.
OK, yes, I understand now. The real question is what do you want to get out of this session?
Ultimately it is a time trial. You run the 300m like a 400m race modelling through the opening 300m as if on a PB schedule. Then you do whatever you have left for the last 150m.
But if you want to develop their staying power without destroying their 200m capacity in early season, then Yes, tempo the first 300m as slow as you like and then blaze the backup 150.
If you are looking for the ability to lift and charge off the bend in a 400m, then substitute the 150m for a series of shorter reps 60, 50, 40, 30, 20 and emphasise “lift” , triple extension, hands up and quickness of movement.
The complete 400m runner needs both the explosiveness to “kick” as well as the lactic acid and tissue breakdown tolerance in the blood.
I always rotated the short reps and the long rep throughout the cycles of training - for variety but mainly for the appropriate stimulation.
The aim of your top males in the 300 + 150 should be to go sub-20 for 150. If they are well under 20sec, then you probably have run too slowly through the first 300m.
Great. Thanks. Yes I have also used the WO where they sprint60 walkback sprint60 Pretty much the same one you have used. I alternate these 2 workouts and the 6x200 rest=2min We were able to get afew guys to run24.5 -26.0 hand time off of a rolling start indoors This later evolved into 2(2x200) rest = 1m + 20-30min Then near the end of season 1x200 rest 25-30 then 1x300
May I just explain to the casual observer that the origins of whatever I have expressed an opinion on in this 400 thread can be found under Fundamentals in the thread “lactic tolerance”. kk
Yes. You also have some valuble information back in one of the old 400m threads from a few years ago. They are very good to go over. Ive probably read them 5or 6 times as im sure others have.
I remembered something i read in CFTS talking about Ben never running over 300m.
This was for all year out ?