I’m glad you tackled that Silverback. The Westside template is a template for eliciting gains in strength and power, most often in the equipped lift. This has very little to do with sprinting, but more with general strength.
With respect to the rate-strength spectrum, Silverback has hit the nail on the head.
Far too often, the specific sport practice (sprinting, football) is thought to develop certain strength specific motor qualities. Whereas, as Silverback stated, rate qualities are not to be confused with strength qualities.
In terms of maximizing workout efficiency it is certainly wise to consider what type of qualities are sufficiently developed during sport practice, thereby allowing the actual strength training program to become streamlined. However, let’s not be mislead into thinking that certain abilities are being developed, for instance on the track, when in truth, the implements that must be used to develop them are found in the weightroom.
Unfortunately, not many, if any at all, training environments are conducive to the types of broad testing that must be executed, on already skilled athletes, in order to truly assess the efficacy of progressive training methods.
We all know that almost any training methods will yield positive results on a novice athlete. However, how many already skilled athletes are often introduced to various training methods as the methods are introduced to the subculture of sport specific training coaches/enthusiasts.
Strength science, as any other science, is continually progressing and in certain cases redifining itself. Unfortunately, many already skilled athletes are reluctant to deviate from the seemingly flawless training methods that have gotten them to their already elite status.
As Coach X, on elitefts.com, has stated, many successful football programs often credit their existing strength and conditioning programs as being part of the whole that leads to championship performances. When in reality, it is the recruitment of already skilled players combined with talent level of the team that allows the actual absurd strength and conditioning methods to exist in spite of themselves.
As Silverback eluded to, many already skilled athletes would likely find themselves happily surprised by the results that would be yielded from employing the optimal programming and application of the training methods that are utilized by Westside Barbell.
James
The RFD and speed created when sprinting are much greater when sprinting than when squating and benching also… does that mean those too should be thrown out?
I think there are a couple of important general points raised that apply wider than this thread
- When modifying a template or training philosophy, to what extent can you change it before it no longer becomes recognisable as the template or philosophy? There is no clear line. I think some rules need to be established with indication of where they would be broken.
2)Sports science is progressing, but sports scientists continually have the problem of generalising their results to elite athletes (which would require a definition as well). They may be able to get small samples of (sub-)elite athletes, but they would give them much more confidence in their results if they could get large samples. I don’t think this is ever going to happen. I also think the issue of confounding variables (variables that might cause the observed effect, which are not manipulated by the researcer) is problematic in sports science. How problematic I don’t know, I’d have to look at some journal articles, but I can’t really afford to now.
No surprise here, I agree with Don
Snatches to the left of dynamic squats on the F:V curve? I don’t think so.
Let’s just clear one thing up. Accomodated resistance (AR) limits bar speed. In the outer range AR is a max force stimulus NOT an RFD stimulus. Dynamic squatting with AR is therefore not an effective RFD stimulus for anything but powerlifting. Ahhh the power of marketing…
David, let’s first acknowledge that chains, bands, weight releasers, etc., are all methods of accomodating resistance, which you already know. However, it must be noted, in contrast to what you posted, that when box squatting, benching, deadlifting, etc, with bar weight AND bands (which together total around the 40-60%1RM range at the top) that the bar speed is FASTER then 40-60%1RM of bar weight alone. This has even been illustrated by Louie Simmons in Westside videos.
Overspeed eccentrics yield faster concentrics. Overspeed eccentrics cannot be accomplished without the aid of AR.
The only instance in which AR would limit bar speed is in concentric only lifts.
DE squatting with AR is an effective RFD stimulus for increasing vertical jump performance and sprint starts. I say this based on practical observations of my own athletes.
Practical observations out weigh theoretical objections.
David, what findings lead you to state that AR limits bar speed, other than concentric only lifts? And WHY do you feel that DE squatting with AR is only effective for PL’s?
James
2 things:
- You pause on the box to break the eccentric:concentric chain
- If bar speed is not reduced the load must be decelerated else it would be thrown off the shoulders (and that would defeat the primary reason behind their use in the first place).
Dynamic squats with AR are just another maximum force stimulus (in relation to the outer range).
FYI
I am currently researching the effects of Post Activation Potentiation on speed strength. 3 repetitions at 90% in the squat cause a significant potentiation in CMJ performance. Guess what happens when the same protocol is repeated with bands? Performance declines! It fucks up motor control.
Could someone please just post the 100m times of everyone who is a member at Westside. I just want to compare what them guys (250lbs-300lbs) are running to the likes of a Kim Collins, Carl Lewis (140lbs-155lbs)respectively???..
Cheers…
They vary from 9.6 to 10.4
… on their bicycles
First, nice site…looks good so far.
Second, you are right that snatches and cleans belong to the left of classic dynamics on the F:V curve. I was actually grouping them together as they represent the highest force production actions…I believe. But, you are right that they belong to the left.
Next, where have you gotten the information that bands caused a decrease in performace, and that this was caused by “fucking up motor control”?
Was this done in a study, or…? And, what were the parameters of the test…can I get a link?
Also, I find it interesting that on your site you use a pic of a Joe Defranco athlete doing a vertical leap. Doesn’t Joe train more with bands and chains than with O-Lifts? I am seriously asking, as I do not know.
Again, sweet site…can’t wait for it to expand…just another doggone bookmark for me to visit daily.
Your comment is silly at best.
Ben’s strength to weight ratio was legendary in track, and he used many lifting techniques forged through the years by men with poor 100m times. But, Charlie took the aspects of all those years of lifting, and molded them into a system that is applicable to 100m sprinters…
That process of examining the benefits of a particular system of lifting is exactly what we are going through here…
With new techniques and new periodization schemes comes new analysis…
When I read your post, I laughed out loud…but I wasn’t laughing with you.
Great discussion! First off, I totally agree with you that box squats/DE days are vastly different from sprinting. However, the question that I was attempting to answer was “are DE days applicable to a sprinter’s program?” And I think in a lot of ways, you made the argument for me. Also note that sprinting (I was also including acceleration days) is not just rate and elastic work. If we look at sprint starts, firing out of the blocks requires starting strength and the first few steps are much less elastic than top speed running. Another nice thing about sprinting/accelerating is that it trains (requires) not only quick RFD but also quick rate of relaxation. Box squats train RoR to a much lesser extent (which is one reason why power lifters have to be careful if they decide to start sprinting.)
This is not to say that box squats or DE days are useless, just that in a sprinter’s program with a limited CNS envelope that IMHO those CNS reserves can be better spent elsewhere. DE days in a sprinter’s prgram are kind of like intensive tempo (80-95%) not fast enough to elicit the speed-strength that would be applicable for sprinting and not heavy enough to elicit max strength gains, all the while being too intense to easily recover from.
BTW, I believe that the highest measured force for any athletic movement was found to be the second pull of one of the olympic lifts (clean I think?) followed closely by the start in the 100m sprint. The OL has its power component based more on loading (the Force component of the power equation) while the sprint start generates large power numbers based on minimizing the time component of the equation. Sprinting (especially the start) is a power activity!
I am going to assume you haven’t done box squats, because I think if you had, you’d probably not have said what you did. I was a skeptic when I first read about and saw them, way back during the deepsquatter days… but, after training for some time with a dynamic component, I am a believer… especially once I added chains and bands into my wave load. Give them a true good faith effort and you might be pleased.
I have done box squats and have even done them with chains (no band work.) Again, I’m not saying they are a bad training modality only that I have not been able to justify putting them into my sprint training program in a DE fashion. I take a minimalist approach. Sprinting for RFD, heavy weights for MxS. My understanding of why WSB put in a DE day was because they found that simply training MxS all the time led to stagnation because the RFD/speed component was missing. They filled in this speed component with DE days, but that certainly isn’t the only way to fill it.
Coming at it from a sprint program perspective, you have the opposite problem. If you just train speed all the time, you will stagnate because you never develop greater strength capacity to apply more force. Again, this can be addresses a number of ways, but MxS training makes the most sense to me. DE days, while having more a strength component, were developed to address RFD/speed. Why not just simplify and go with MxS training to address the quality directly?
Back to box squats in particular, I actually don’t like the way that WSB box squats break the eccentric-concentric chain (I know WSB claims this is an advantage…perhaps someone could explain to me why this would be for a sprinter/athlete?) However, I do use boxes as a target for squat depth. I call them ‘touch n go’ squats. (BTW, I’m not claiming this is an original idea…I think I heard about it from Charlie.) Set the box height to the depth you want to get to, then squat down until you just touch the box and explode up. This helps keep the depth of the squat consistent as the weights rise, but doesn’t break the e-c chain.
No. I tried to explain this in my previous post, but let me take another shot at it. WSB includes DE days to address the fact that training MxS all the time results in stagnation due to lack of development of RFD. On the other hand, for sprinting, we have plenty of RFD work, but need to address greater strength as the foundation for applying more force.
Charlie often has said that work anywhere along the force velocity curve affects the entire curve. So, doing DE work, MxS, speed work, plyos, etc all will improve RFD, speed and MxS to some extent. However it comes down to optimizing CNS usage and maximizing training effeciency. This can vary significantly from athlete to athlete. So general guidelines can be used, but must be adjusted for the athlete. A good starting place however is Charlie’s system which uses sprinting to address the speed components and MxS work to address overall organism (general) strength. Remember, any of the work you do in the gym is not specific to sprinting…and that’s ok!
To be Fair to WSB, the template never contemplated, I believe, anyone other than strength athletes, e.g. powerlifters, football, etc. However, as everyone has aptly pointed out, the program can be modified significantly to fit other sports inasmuch as the principles behind it are sound. But you do raise some really interesting points re; trying to modify it for a sprinter.
How do bands offer accommodating resistance? They don’t. Bands and chains are not isokinetic either, however, isokinetic, cam and feedback controlled systems offer various attempts to provide accommodating resistance, but bands and chains do not and cannot.
no23, Would that time be in minutes or days???..
Your comment is silly at best.
Ben’s strength to weight ratio was legendary in track, and he used many lifting techniques forged through the years by men with poor 100m times. But, Charlie took the aspects of all those years of lifting, and molded them into a system that is applicable to 100m sprinters…
That process of examining the benefits of a particular system of lifting is exactly what we are going through here…
With new techniques and new periodization schemes comes new analysis…
When I read your post, I laughed out loud…but I wasn’t laughing with you.
I just wanted to know the times of the guys at Westside who follow the program, that’s all… Seems they couldn’t beat an elephant on motorbikes…
There has been a lot of interesting points raised in this thread so for general interest purposes I shall post the following discussion I had with Louie Simmons re the training of sprinters.
This is recorded on tape in Spring 2003.
Bp:" Louie you say that you would like to work with sprinters because you would be able to make sprinters faster and stronger so how exactly would you go about doing that?"
Ls:" A lot of sled pulling and the interval method using a particular amount of weight and establish a certain amount of time.Like a 100m runner I would make him pull for 12 seconds,and then as they increase their strength I would add weight as long as they kept the speed the same.
Plus a lot of glute ham raises a lot of reverse hypers a lot of belt squats a lot of seated calf work a lot of lat work in seperate workouts,of course seperate of running by at least four hours"
Bp:“How many times a week would you have the athletes use the weights during the off season period?”
Ls:“Off season I would have them train four times per week with weights either that or the sled.I would alternate it they would do glute hams until it started to have a diminishing return,then I would go to a lot of band leg curls and maybe other exercises like the Dimmel deadlifts where you drop down and Reverse Hypers constantly push as hard as you can and constantly switching exercises as soon as the benefits start to devolve”.
Bp:“So when you trained Butch Reynolds what exactly did you have him doing then?”
Ls:Butch did a lot of sled dragging a lot of seated calf work he did a LOT of squatting and we started where Butch trained with 225lbs and two sets of chain.He would do sets of ten with a thirty second break inbetween.
We kept increasing the repetitions and decreasing the time until he actually did fourty five squats in fourty five seconds and that is what we were after"
Bp:“What sort of weight was he working with to be able to do that?”
Ls:“225 and two sets of chain on a box squat and it was slightly above parallell there was no real need for him to go that deep”
Bp:“As for the sled dragging what sort of weight was he using there?”
Ls:"On our sleds I think the top weight he used was three 45lb plates and long strides like power walking.He did some sprinting with it but mostly it was just power walking.He did a lot of backwards power walking and forward power walking as well.
Bp:“How long was he training using those methods for?”
Ls:“He did it for five months after not running for five years and he ran 43,91 in the 400m”.
Bp:“When he first came to you Butch said he used to find the last 100m quite tough”.
Ls:“Yeah he was afraid of the kick,so we would count his repetitons when he would get three quarters through we would actually make him pick up the speed the speed on his reps.Thats why he was physically dying he was afraid of that kick so we just mentally and emotionally trained him not to be afraid of that kick”.
“We also did a lot of oblique work in the stand up ab machine his feet were seperated like this that way you go straight yet you can flex the front leg oblique and that way it does not put any stress on the lower back and it does not put any stress on the groin.Because he kept getting groin injuries from running the curve”
Bp:“Did he follow the same Westside method of Max effort day and Speed day?”
Ls:Yeah he did floor press and floor pressed about 295 which I thought was pretty good.I trained a 100m sprinter and he actually Bench pressed 315 for 3 reps and he weighed about 175lbs.So the sprinters had to be very strong.
In fact the 100m sprinter I just had him work for 12secs because it is a 10sec race.
Bp:“What is the biggest mistake that todays athletes make in training,where do you see their weaknesses”?
Ls:“Basically they do not train the posterior chain they workout like bodybuilders,they do slow barbell exercises.If you are going to be involved in an explosive strength sport even the weights have to be explosive if you do your weight training it has to be explosive”
Bp:“So every athlete needs to include box squats in their programme Reverse Hypers Glute Ham Sled dragging and lots of Abdominal work as well”
Ls:“Right! I would always look to bring up the posterior chain first”
A lot of straight legged sit ups a lot of hanging leg raises attatching weight when you can.A lot of straggle legged sit ups blows up ther hips for amazing power"
You must train the Central Nervous System not the musculature system for speed and strength.It is the CNS that is the key.
Remember to have a three week wave for the weights have them go up for three weeks but then they have got to back down and then go back up again.Change the resistance with the amount of bands that they use".
Bp:Can you expand on that?
Ls:“Okay for Power training you need to train at 50-60% of 1 rep max so if you have got a fellow who can Squat 300lbs you would train him at 50% or 150lbs for doubles the first week.In the second week you would go to 55% and the third week you jump to 60% so you would go 150-165-180.In the first two weeks its 12 doubles in the third week its 10 doubles.The volume is regulated through special exercises like Glute Ham raises,if he has a day of Glute Ham raises in a three week period he will not be very good at the beginning but in three weeks he will establish a high volume of glute ham raises.But after three weeks you are not going to get any better at the Glute ham raise so you must switch to another major exercise for the hamstrings like a lot of extra leg band curls Dimmel deadlifts for instance”
I will be happy to provide more info if people want it.
Maybe Louie should stick to training powerlifters…