Westside Barbell Method-Arguements For/Against

[Supervenomsuperman]

@numba56

no it really isnt. its the same thing, since speed is the sprinters priority, they sprint first, lift later, and i dont know about you but after a session of sprint i cant hit very high loads. In powerlifting both maximal strength and maximal force(Max Effort and Dynamic Effort) are of equal importance, thus them each having a seperate day to train them equally.

That’s why you do a split routine with weights being done 4+ hours later! :eek:

[Supervenomsuperman]

@numba56

question, can anyone offer an explanation of Adam Archuletta’s 4.37 40 @ 211lbs with no sprinting? As well he does perform very well as a saftey for the Rams, continually up there in tackles in the league(hes more of a fast smaller linebacker). Honestly though he is the only example I can think of that would even bring the thought to my mind of whether sprinting was necessary in training for football…

Football players do sprint maybe not on them track but constantly in practice, In Archuletta’s case it might be his genes like Deion Sanders who never did track work although he did compete in some track workouts and meets. Look at Tim Dwight who always trains track in the off-season.

[Supervenomsuperman]

@numba56

This thread is about arguments against and for, so Im asking if Archuletta had that success with focus in the weight, on he field I mean, is there a need for sprint training in football, or can it all be taken care of in the weight room? I would think this would differ from situation to situation, but still…and also remember David W ran a 6.92 60m electronic with no sprint training(this isnt to say I am advocating a no sprinting regime, just showing what can be done). As well distances run in football are normally not over 20, 25 yards…

except for punt and kick returners.

[Supervenomsuperman]

@numba56

hes said this so many times, because comp acc cant be permitted in a squat without leaving the ground, the body deaccelerates the weight to save the joints…i dont have the scientific answer or whatever to that, but look at westside if you could just stimulate RFD by just trying to push as hard as you could what would be the purpose of having Dynamic days or plyometrics? I remember seeing in an article that in the soviet union they concluded that expression of max strength was in no way associated with expression of RFD…

You don’t have to slow the weight down when your focusing on compensatory acceleration. Your joints don’t have to suffer, remember when doing low reps you fire the first rep off and then on subsequent reps you absorb the energy and lower the weight and then fire it up again!

[101pro]

@Supervenomsuperman

You don’t have to slow the weight down when your focusing on compensatory acceleration. Your joints don’t have to suffer, remember when doing low reps you fire the first rep off and then on subsequent reps you absorb the energy and lower the weight and then fire it up again!

Are you referring to jump squats or regular squats?

[Supervenomsuperman]

@lylemcd

Right. But primarily because increasing mechanical advantage makes the lift easier, necessitating an increased decceleration phase. With the bands at least, since they are increasing resistance at the top of the movement, the decceleration phase will be decreased (it will never be removed because any traditional weight training exercise requires an initial and final velocity of zero which means, by deifnition, you can’t accelerate all the way through). At the very least this should improve RFD during part of the ROM.

And I certainly don’t disagree that ballstics are probably better overall for this as one can accelerate through full ROM. I’m s imply not sure I agree that accomodating resistance, wehre the athlete attempts to move as quickly as possible are useless for improving RFD (see study below).

In reference to bands,

Your missing the point. Compensatory Acceleration with free wts (without bands) does eventually have the bar speed slow down, so what? The point is that As long as you try to launch that sucker throught roof on every attempt (MxS at 85-100%) then your training MU recruitment properly. In other words once you get passed the sticking point say the bottom 0-6 inches off your chest then you don’t need to be lifting heavier resistance at the end ROM because your just wasting energy. When doing bench for example you try to get as many reps as possible for MxS. I don’t see how doing more wt at the end ROM is going to help you get stronger for the bottom ROM in bench in your next workout. If you can focus on Bar speed (compensatory acceleration) at every rep then you will get stronger because your activating more MU voluntarily. Instead of bands you should buy a tendo unit which is a unit that measures bar speed. Bands slow down bar speed in the concentric phase and that is why they should not be used as a regular training tool.

If there is a need to train at the outer ROM then just do quarter squats!

[Supervenomsuperman]

@101pro

Are you referring to jump squats or regular squats?

both! :eek:

[Supervenomsuperman]

@Rock_N_Roll

Not sure David W. Will a maximum quarter squat make your legs move any quicker???..

That’s why full squats are superior to any other (MxS) in developing RFD.

On a similar note,

Hurdle jumps after a certain height actually leads to detraining effect because the elastic response isn’t as optimal.

[101pro]

In a regular squat you have to slow the movement down as you approach lockout.

[Supervenomsuperman]

@101pro

In a regular squat you have to slow the movement down as you approach lockout.

Yes but you are still pushing as hard as you can to complete the lift. In the bench press for example most lifters slowdown at the very end, I don’t slow-down as much, I continue to push through and throw the weight onto the safety pins.

[Supervenomsuperman]

@jman316

Here is my point. When box squatting with DE percentages, your time to complete a repetition with bands at a given bar weight, compared to that same bar weight alone (no bands), is faster. This is the result of the increased stored elastic/kinetic energy that only AR (bands in this case) can provide.
James

BUT YOUR MEASURING BAR SPEED INACCURATELY. TO GET A TRUE COMPARISON YOU MUST MEASURE WHAT THE ACTUAL BAR WEIGHT IS WITHOUT BANDS EVEN IF YOU USE THEM. SO FOR EXAMPLE IF USE 225LBS FREE WT BUT WITH 60LBS OF BAND WEIGHT AT THE TOP THEN YOU CAN ONLY COMPARE THAT 225LBS OF BARBELL WT WITH SOMEBODY JUST DOING 225LBS FREE WT WITHOUT BANDS. YOU’LL FIND THAT BAR SPEED ON THE CONCENTRIC PORTION OF THE LIFT IS HIGHER WITHOUT BANDS AND ASSUMING THE LIFTER IS DOING COMPENSATORY ACCELERATION!

[Supervenomsuperman]

@numba56

5. I think his times would be lowered with sprinting more because of the specific motor pattern development of relaxation and contraction timing.
   …

I disagree with this!

[Supervenomsuperman]

@stevedana

I cannot help but to give consideration to DB Hammer’s theories regarding the maximum time you can exhibit that force. We all agree that to bench 400 in 1.5 sec v. 4 sec is preferable and exhibits greater force output, but is it wise to ignore all work above let’s say 5 seconds?? I can tell you know, from “doing”, that 2 reps in the DE squat are done under 5 sec. Same for 3 reps bench. Same for 3 reps ME on any movement - except that the time under tension may be closer to 5-9 seconds. For those not aquainted with DB’s “time theories” it is simply this (what I am referring to now). If you had 2 seconds to lift a maximal load or 7, which would be preferable. So, I am wondering, when it comes to absolute limit attempts, is there no value in being able to sustain maximum force at relatively extended times? And if so, then I believe that WSB template ignores that end of the continuum. And continuing, isn’t a “sticking point” really the inability to “strain” for sufficient time to overcome that point? And doesn’t it follow that increasing your “strain time” if you will, will help overcome sticking points. Isn’t the real disadvantage, for instance, of the long levered lifter (or any lifter at sticking point), the relative inability to strain through it? I hope I’m not getting too muddied here in my point. If I am, sorry. WSB simply does not address max force production at times beyond 6 seconds or so, instead, sacrificing that area of work for an almost maniacal goal to “become faster” in the movement e.g., produce more force. Does WSB do this at the expense of other strength development, where a perfect balance would be first, more individualized to the athletes relative weaknesses, and second, somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. I guess this question can be put simply; is all work in the above 6 sec range useless for developing limit strength? The only time on WSB I work in this time range is under sub maximal load for accessory work. Comments please.

!

Time under tension is a can be dangersous for a beginner bc the longer your under tension say after 3 seconds (per rep)the greater the chance of injury especially eccentrics! You have to be careful not to use this type of training for beginners and be very careful with intermediate athletes using it.

[101pro]

@Supervenomsuperman

why? I don’t slow down

OK, so if the weight never decelerates as you reach lockout, how does it stop. In order for the weight to stop at the top of a squat the bar HAS to slow down. in order for an object to stop it must slow down. unless you are familiar with some new crazy physics I do not know about.

Otherwise you’d jump i the air, at which point in time gravity would slow you down and bring you back to earth (aka perform a jump squat)

[101pro]

@Supervenomsuperman

BUT YOUR MEASURING BAR SPEED INACCURATELY. TO GET A TRUE COMPARISON YOU MUST MEASURE WHAT THE ACTUAL BAR WEIGHT IS WITHOUT BANDS EVEN IF YOU USE THEM. SO FOR EXAMPLE IF USE 225LBS FREE WT BUT WITH 60LBS OF BAND WEIGHT AT THE TOP THEN YOU CAN ONLY COMPARE THAT 225LBS OF BARBELL WT WITH SOMEBODY JUST DOING 225LBS FREE WT WITHOUT BANDS. YOU’LL FIND THAT BAR SPEED ON THE CONCENTRIC PORTION OF THE LIFT IS HIGHER WITHOUT BANDS AND ASSUMING THE LIFTER IS DOING COMPENSATORY ACCELERATION!

I CAN DO 405LBS OF SQUAT RIGHT NOW AND WILL PROBABLY HIT 500LBS EASILY LATER ON THIS YEAR JUST SIMPLY DO TO PERIODIZATION AND COMPENSATORY ACCELERATION! :eek:

You missed his point

they timed lifters.

Lifter A:
400lb bar weight
50%1rm
NO BANDS
eccentric time 2 seconds
concentric time 2 seconds

Lifter A (same lifter):
400lb bar weight (same weight on bar)
50%1rm
200lbs of ADDITIONAL band tension (600lbs at the top)
eccentric time 0.9 seconds
concentric time 0.9 seconds

same real weight on the bar, only one had additional band tension. the one with the band tension was faster.

[101pro]

@Supervenomsuperman

Time under tension is a horrible thing the longer your under tension say after 3 seconds (per rep)the greater the chance of injury especially eccentrics! :eek:

he’s not talkling about TUT prescriptions, he is talking about the time it takes to complete a 1rm performed using CAT (as fast as possible).

[Supervenomsuperman]

@slowman

Ok please disregard my last post. I did a lil more searching and found what I was looking for. There really is no NEED for O-lifts in a sprinters program. They seem to be better suited for other athletes who may be doing less frequent high quality speed workouts.

OL should be a fundamental year round exercise for sprinters! :eek:

[Supervenomsuperman]

@Charlie_Francis

Prob is the push upwards from a lunge starts ahead of the hip while the push-off from the blocks must be behind an imaginary plum-line dropped from the hips.

Then what about hack squats or squats on a leg press machine where your body is at an 45 degree angle? This would seem to be a better exercise than a squat for the intial pushoff out of the blocks (think about joint angles)! :eek:

[Supervenomsuperman]

@101pro

he’s not talkling about TUT prescriptions, he is talking about the time it takes to complete a 1rm performed using CAT (as fast as possible).

My bad for misinterpreting.

[Supervenomsuperman]

@101pro

You missed his point

they timed lifters.

Lifter A:
400lb bar weight
50%1rm
NO BANDS
eccentric time 2 seconds
concentric time 2 seconds

Lifter A (same lifter):
400lb bar weight (same weight on bar)
50%1rm
200lbs of ADDITIONAL band tension (600lbs at the top)
eccentric time 0.9 seconds
concentric time 0.9 seconds

same real weight on the bar, only one had additional band tension. the one with the band tension was faster.

Maybe so, but has Lifter A ever done compensentory acceleration? 2 seconds for the concentric portion of 50% of a 1RM? Are you kidding me? I would launch that sucker through the roof at those percentages and probably under 1 sec for the concentric portion of the lift!

Your telling me that a lifter doing 50% 1RM takes longer to do the concentric portion of the lift than when he uses bands!LOL