how come those studies are worthless? I know many studies have logical inaccuracy, but what about when simply looking at deficiency of Vitamin D vs. higher rates of cancer?
For years we had doctors claiming vits were expensive urine and now there is proof that both ancer and MS could have been reduced in norther nd southern climes with periods of reduced sunshine.
Just the other day I ran across an asshole cancer MD shitting on Linus Pauling and vit c and he claimed Pauling “died of cancer anyway”
Just for the record, Pauling got cancer in the 1960s and died in 1994 at the age of 93.
Because the studies compare:
-Extreme Deficiency
with
-Recommended consumption
and then somehow people come to the conclusion:
-More than the recommended amount is ideal. Particularly to an extremely excessive degree.
That is the problem with most people’s interpretations of the studies. It is like the fish oil studies that show EPA and DHA to be tremendous, but then people go and recommend >20g of fish oil a day and people start to have severe immune system disturbances because of the excess consumption.
What are your opinions on Vitamin C? There is some new data suggesting that Vitamin C supplementation in even very modest doses can impair oxidative adaptations. Many of these studies are performed in untrained individuals, which obviously muddies things. Just curious on your take of antioxidant supplementation in general. It seems that things are more complicated than originally thought.
Thanks.
Studies have also examined what are thought to be optimal levels of serum D (e.g. 30-50 ng/dl depending on who you read). Those levels are generally NOT achievable with intakes of the DRI and many are suggesting an increase in the DRI to much higher levels (e.g. 800 IU/day to 2000 IU/day).
It’s not all deficiency stuff being misinterpreted as you suggest above.
Lyle
It isn’t ALL being misinterpreted, it is just an aspect to consider that has been becoming much more common (especially those peddling certain Vitamin D products like Mercola). Vitamin D tends to be innocuous compared to some other substances when people go on the other side of the spectrum (over supplementation), but the line of thinking tends to be the same, as I mentioned with another common supplement people go way overboard with at time.
I think fogelson has a point about overdoing it. Some is good, more does not necessarily mean better. The fish oil example was a good one. The key is whether there is an actual deficiency/insufficiency. Vitamin D is one of the few nutrients that really cannot be obtained in adequate amounts from a good diet (cod liver oil being one of the few good sources) because it’s supposed to be synthesized primarily from UV exposure and not food intake.
I think it is just now dawning on researchers that true Vitamin D deficiency/insufficiency is actually quite common in certain latitudes during the winter months, and that the pathetic amounts of vitamin D added to milk and other dairy products (usually in the form of D2) is not nearly sufficient to adequately raise serum levels.
If you live in places like Florida or Hawaii this should not be an issue. Canada, England, Seattle, that’s another story.
Lyle, do you have any opinions about the values that are considered optimal? 30-50ng/dl has traditionally been used as the recommended optimal range, but I have also seen recommendations that 50-99ng/dl is optimal.
My response to this is has always been no, at worst they give you cheap urine. Vitamins are not that expensive. Relatively speaking beer gives you expensive urine.
I really wanted to pound this guy for so many reasons. What is your view re Vit C.
My interest at this point is in cancer tx. My info has been that gut tolerance can be a guide and that cancer patients tend to have a much higher tolerance in part because of need/use for it. I’m always sceptical of most simple theories.
What little I have read about it indicates that intravenous vitamin C is more effective and bypasses the whole GI tolerance issue. I remember posting a link to an IV C study a couple months ago, but I can’t find it through the search engine. It might have been from Bill Sardi’s site.
I believe Eric Serrano has a lot of experience with IV Vitamin C, although I don’t think specifically for cancer treatment. But I still think he would be a good source to consult.
I did find these links:
http://www.cancermonthly.com/blog/2007/12/vitamin-c-and-cancer.html
http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyOncology/OtherCancers/2938
http://www.lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi43.html
http://www.cihh.net/index.php/services/iv_therapy
http://www.lef.org/newsletter/2008/0104_Clinical-trial-vitamin-C-non-Hodgkin-lymphoma.htm
Back to Vitamin D, how to determine what you need:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/health/deficiency/am-i-vitamin-d-deficient.shtml
My take on Cancer, or should I say, how to treat it, is with the use of the Marijuana (slang term) plant.
There is a process where you put the leaves into a metal pot with Everclear (grain alcohol) which brings out the THC from the leaves/buds. You then boil the alcohol until all that is left is a dark paste that is SUPER rich in THC. Well, people who have claimed they had cancer would ingest a rice grain amount of this paste 4/5 times a day and eventually recovered. BTW, you cant use the hemp oil that you can buy at your local health food store because it contains ZERO THC thanks to the U.S GOV.
Also, Harvard just released a study on THC and it’s effects on cutting cancer growth.
http://www.nowpublic.com/thc_marijuana_helps_cure_cancer_says_harvard_study
Here is the video:
Wow…
what are thoughts on supplementing zinc, arginine, vitamin C for immune system enhancing?
All of those things and many others are good up to a certain point (and are necessary for healthy immune function). Many people are deficient due to poor diets or for many other reasons, so supplementing may help. With that in mind, mega-dosing such substances is quite dubious overall and may lead to unexpected consequences. While there are some theoretical benefits (via vitamin C for example), there are also many drawbacks to excessive (more than necessary) consumption of such substances as well.
Well what standard do you go by to prevent deficiencies? The RDA? 400mg vitamin D + 60mg vitamin C is really enough? Or does one bump it up to 2000-5000mg and 1000mg vitamin C for good benefits.
Mega dosing is a different story of course, cause we’re talking excess of 10 grams of D and 3g or more of C.
How much you need will be dependent on numerous factors (what a 110lb sedentary female needs and what a 220lb male athlete needs are going to be quite different) and isn’t 100% clear (as Lyle has already mentioned in this thread–lots of debate on the subject). In general, if you aren’t having issues, then you probably are not deficient. That is quite dumbed down, but a lot of people will over do it or find things wrong with them that aren’t wrong at all. Look at your diet and see where things are going and if you might be deficient in something. Overall, if you are getting a variety of animal meats, fruits, and vegetables and perhaps take a multi-vitamin, chances that you are deficient in anything is low. If you are in an area with low sunlight, supplementing with vitamin D (or going to a tanning bed or one of numerous other options) is likely a good idea as well, but those things become high individualized. The main point I’m trying to make is to not go overboard with the supplementation for the sake of it if there isn’t anything wrong in the first place.
I agree. You really have to determine your individual needs, just like training. I think most people take supplements on faith without any really objective measure of what their true needs states are, which of course the supplement companies thrive on.
I think a simple multi is a cheap and harmless insurance policy, with some extra Vit D in the winter. But ultimately you have to test your levels to know what you need. Even if you do need something, changing whole food intake would be my first choice. Granted there are some nutrients that are difficult to obtain in optimal amounts even from a great whole food diet (e.g., Vit D, DHA, EPA).
The home Vit D test that the Vitamin D Council offers through ZRT looks promising. I just wish there were similar convenient home-based tests for other nutrients that did not require the hassle and cost of a doctor’s appointment. I think that would be an extremely profitable business venture.
Immune enhancing? Well, along with what fogelson said, make sure you get your sleep (deep sleep) and reduce stress. Many people forget about that!