Ange,the following is from an interview to U.S. weightlifting coach John Broz, but while applying to the object of the thread it lays down some interesting priciples behind different training systems,which I have personally found equally effective when properly managed:
[i]“Your connective tissue is avascular and doesn’t recover as quickly as the muscles. What happens when you train every single day is that the entire system becomes fatigued, which means your muscles cannot contract hard enough to put the connective tissue in danger of injury. If you take a day or two off from training, the muscles are able to contract super hard, and the next thing you know you have an injury. I’ve talked about this for years, and one day I did exactly what I shouldn’t have. I had taken two days off completely from training and was feeling pretty good, so I decided to go heavy like I always do. I was squatting 220 kilos, and the result was that I got two partial tears in my quads and a partial tendon tear. When I train every day, I never, ever have problems like this.”
(A Few Words with Weightlifting Coach John Broz-Insight into how this accomplished athlete and coach uses Bulgarian methods to train American weightlifters - by Kim Goss, MS)[/i]
And from the same man more quotes easily found here and there:
"The body is amazing when you push it. You never know what you are capable of doing on any given day. The way you feel is a lie.
There is no such a thing as overtraining: if you can’t do something you are not in good enough shape."
I find it interesting,and true when one knows exactly what she/he is doing…What is your opinion/experience about this?
Thank you.
Finally I can post again: My keyboard went on the fritz and all I could use was my mouse…so frustrating because I couldn’t enter anything. Finally I bit the bullet and got a new one…so here we are today with me finally being able to post again.
I wasn’t signed but the coach recommended me to another team for trials (at a lower level) and there I did receive an offer. However, I decided it was in my best interest instead to sign for the semi-pro team where I played last spring/summer and hopefully transition from there to somewhere bigger.
I played well at the trials and was easily the best physically- was the fastest and could run forever
I have to report to my club this week but I’ve been training pretty consistently so I feel ready. I have acquired a sled (a tire ) as well so I have been utilizing that a little bit in my training.
Yesterday morning I did 4x4x10m (each time I would do 2 reps with the sled and then 2 reps without). The sled was very light.
Then yesterday afternoon I lifted
It appears that I am several years late to join in on this discussion but I am highly intrigued by this comment. I understand how the CF training system is appropriate given its high/low framework and emphasis on recovery. However, I cannot wrap my head around how Ivan Abadjiev’s system would fit the given context.
Pakewi, James, Ange, or anyone else who understands the rationale, can you please explain the thought process behind this?
With all due respect for Pakewi, I disagree that Abadjeev’s system is even remotely close to being universally as beneficial as Charlie’s, and I also disagree as to the relevance of a sport science department. In addition, Abadjeev’s system exists in distinct contrast to Charlie’s in nearly every way.
For example, 11-12 years ago I had a weightlifter come live with me while I coached him. After this period he was invited to train with Abadjeev in San Francisco. During that time he conveyed to me what occurred and after a few months with Abadjeev he asked me to work with him again in preference of how I structured the workload. The common thread running through Abadjeev’s work with weightlifters is frequency (in some cases extreme), specificity, and a highly competitive training atmosphere. Very a much a ‘strongest shall survive’ environment of natural selection applied to sport.
Also worth noting, while my guys was working with Abadjeev, when Abadjeev was asked about his thoughts on any other type of athlete performing the Olympic weight lifts he stated “leave the weight lifting to weightlifters”.
As it pertains to team and combat sport, my contention is that the future of sport lies in the proper education of coaches, the unification of the factionalized modes of coaching, the elimination of S&C coaches, and the emergence of “sport engineers” who will be responsible for generating the blueprint from which all coaches and active physio therapy schedules work from. My upcoming book goes into great depth on all of this and you can also read concepts I’ve offered on social media.
Interesting anecdote about your dealings with Abadjeev. Everything you mentioned about his system fits with what I know about it (mostly from watching the School of Champions documentary). Earlier in this thread, Pakewi posted the following quote from John Broz which I interpreted as implicit support for his subsequent comment about the universal applicability of Abadjeev’s system:
[i]“Your connective tissue is avascular and doesn’t recover as quickly as the muscles. What happens when you train every single day is that the entire system becomes fatigued, which means your muscles cannot contract hard enough to put the connective tissue in danger of injury. If you take a day or two off from training, the muscles are able to contract super hard, and the next thing you know you have an injury. I’ve talked about this for years, and one day I did exactly what I shouldn’t have. I had taken two days off completely from training and was feeling pretty good, so I decided to go heavy like I always do. I was squatting 220 kilos, and the result was that I got two partial tears in my quads and a partial tendon tear. When I train every day, I never, ever have problems like this.”
(A Few Words with Weightlifting Coach John Broz-Insight into how this accomplished athlete and coach uses Bulgarian methods to train American weightlifters - by Kim Goss, MS)
[/i]
What are your thoughts on this?
Sounds like he desensitized himself, and once he finally had some recovery and got some of that sensitivity back, he probably wasn’t able to handle the shock of the higher level of stimulus that was able to be achieved from more compensation.
My initial thought is that another option for avoiding muscle and tendon tears is to not train near maximally consecutive days on end. I have a disdain for speculation (though it seems Broz does not because all he is referencing is one personal experience and somehow using that as proof for a viable theory). In addition, what Broz cannot rule out is the possibility that he would have injured himself regardless if he didn’t take the two days off.
He does not list any specifics in terms of what the loading looked like over the previous weeks. So there are way too many unknowns.
I have written about why lifting weights, relatively intensely, on consecutive days is achievable, and effective in many cases, and I’ve also explained why it is a reckless mistake to extrapolate this concept to other sports.
I totally agree that there are too many unknowns and one guys experience is hardly a rule we need to live by for training or coaching. Let’s all go and squat 220 kilos and see what happens? WTF.
And as per lifting weights every day relatively intensely? I am sure for some done methodically in some sports we could find evidence of this having worked. Is it a rule we wish to say works for speed development?
I don’t know.
Did Donavan doing 100 starts during the warm up at the national championships the year before the Olympics follow things I knew for sure and more importantly my coach knew for sure? Hell NO.
But what we know for sure is we really didnt know all sorts of details regarding what was going on.
When I saw Mark McKoy give a masters athlete one hour of starting drills did I think that made sense? No warm up, no workout just one full hour of starts one after the other? Does that mean Mark knows zero about starting? Most anyone trained or not WONT benefit from overload of physical tasks. If their life depended on it might work in some cases. Eastern European athlete clearly have defied performances and practicing norms that we now now as more normal today.
If a soccer player wishes to be fast I strongly suggest studying the literature of those coaches who have routinely produced and developed talent. If a sprinter wishes to play soccer he or she might want to study literature written by coaches or athletes that have achieved or produced or developed talent.
YOU TUBE tells a part of the story. LOL
Connective tissue is avascular which I think is the same as something I have spoken about before and confirmed with the various therapist I’ve worked with: Connective tissue is bradytrophic meaning it does not get the kind of blood flow to the area the same way soft tissue muscles do. Connective tissue is what in part makes up a great deal of our joints. What I know for sure is we can’t just add continually to our joints as it’s cumulative over time which is load and it’s not a real wonder to me that one day someone who is lifting 220 kilos had an issue. I’m going to take a big fat guess that the 2 days off Have F-ing zero to do with his injury. It’s called spurious correlation in science.
It sounds like a pretty standard top soccer team environment,both on the pitch and…locker room. Exactly what I meant above. No reference to weightlifting or gym whatsoever,a non factor in top soccer performance.
Exactly what I implied above in my original comment.
I am currently a part-time strength coach working with team sports (primary responsibilities include volleyball and tennis) and I’ve been digging through the forum archives to see how others have successfully implemented Charlie’s system with their teams.
Pakewi, thanks for responding after all these years! Just to clarify, you were referring more to the Bulgarian culture than the actual training activities? I interpreted your original comment in that you might apply Abadjiev’s system in the same manner that you’d apply Charlie’s for a team sport and that it has a similar safety net like Charlie’s in the absence of a dedicated sport science staff.
To clarify further: I referred to Charlie’s and Abajeev’s systems as they represent successful applications of the generality vs specificity principles respectively,in their pure form and understanding,not the pitiful hybrids pro and pop sports have to offer nowadays.
but the coach recommended me to another team for trials (at a lower level) and there I did receive an offer. However, I decided it was in my best interest instead to sign for the semi-pro team where I played last spring/summer and hopefully transition from there to somewhere bigger.