Thoughts on Charlie Francis and soccer

[ESTI]

@svincenz

N2, keep in mind that at least in soccer, the greatest players (not good, not so and so, great) spent hours and hours and hours again when they were child (and therefore more plastic) in simply playing the game, in backyards, fields and so on (read their biographies, no one is saying that max strenght training was responsible for their greatness, it was some divine intervention or those hours on the field). They were not, pass me the metaphor, built in the lab.
So, what are the traits of great players, how did they develop their skills?
It is clear that there is room for improvement and there are a lot of good players who would be positively influenced by more sound training plans.

So, my post here has to be put in the right context (I’m all in favour of sound training plans and development of athletic abilities, periodization, long-term development), but at the same time success leaves clues.

This is excellent insight. Charlie and I developed a graph to show what a progression of technical, tactical and physical development in a player might look like. The key point is in developing players, technical ability must first be addressed, then tactical development. AT this point, probably in mid teen years, physical development will begin with weights, more formal fitness etc.

Even in many undeveloped nations, athletes around age 18 are selected for national teams, regional teams etc, and this is where their physical prep begins. Up til that point, they spend many hours, as mentioned above, playing in streets, maybe some leagues etc.

Unfortunately, because anyone can start a club team, we now have U7 travel teams playing for “national” titles etc. Also, in many clubs in my area, the best coaches are with the oldest teams. It would appear more logical to have the best technical coaches with the young players, and not the least experienced, as I have seen.

In the US, there are progressions for player development. I am curious about other countries as well.

Recreation–>club (Select)–>club (premier) -->academy team–>club/academy teams playing in regional leagues (compared to state leagues)—>multiregional leagues

On another track, is the process for selection for the national teams. State Olympic Development—>Regional teams—> national teams

There is a lot of political issues for borderline players at the state level, and because of it, many players do not tryout after U14 for these teams.

Will post more later when I have time.

[Race_Radio]

@svincenz

N2, keep in mind that at least in soccer, the greatest players (not good, not so and so, great) spent hours and hours and hours again when they were child (and therefore more plastic) in simply playing the game, in backyards, fields and so on (read their biographies, no one is saying that max strenght training was responsible for their greatness, it was some divine intervention or those hours on the field).

The greats such as (Diego Maradonna, George Best, Di Stefano etc) spent hours upon hours everyday/week speed juggling, usually a smaller ball than matchball (size 5), regular juggling, tennis/ping-pong/golf balls etc, wall work developing left & right feet usually till there feet got very sore, on the beach from dusk till dawn (if they had access), the beach having positive effects when applying the same skills on turf.

Thats gone now. All they had then was a ball. I never see good two footed players anymore, never see a player with a great Maradonna-esque first touch, them qualities (balance/coordination) have to be trained everyday (which are mentally demanding), in its place now is the internet, computer games for players etc… A lot do gym work, some with good programs, but greatness isn’t made there, although a player can certainly reep the benefits.

Its on the player to dedicate his life to the ball. And when I mean dedicate his life, I mean DEDICATE his life. Maradonna slept with his ball.

@Carlos Tevez

Growing up in a slum had it’s own problems and the daily struggle for food and survival was the greatest of them all. His father was a bricklayer and found work hard to come by, whilst his mother stayed at home to bring up Carlos and his four siblings. Tevez, the eldest of five children, learned how to hussle on the street, regulary playing street football in return for food and drink.

Carlos Tevez needed soccer to stay alive. When your life is dependant on it, you’d guess he would get pretty far.

[no23]

It’s not all gone now … it’s just the names of the places have changed.

Now you see more emphasis on scouting and recruiting African or North African players than when Maradonna was playing.

There is a rough rule that the more poverty there is the more skillful the players you’ll find.

As for gym programs … very few follow gym programs at all.

[Race_Radio]

@no23

It’s not all gone now … it’s just the names of the places have changed.

Now you see more emphasis on scouting and recruiting African or North African players than when Maradonna was playing.

There is a rough rule that the more poverty there is the more skillful the players you’ll find.

There is going to be some good stuff coming out of Africa very shortly, particulary Ghana with U-20 NATIONAL team current African and World Youth Champions.

Having said that…

I thought the USA should have beaten Ghana at the World Cup.

Do we put USA’s success/future success down to “presumably” greater strength & fitness levels?, over differing teams.

[ASheaff]

@pakewi

My whole point being: every small desired improvement comes as a response of combined stimuli.For that improvement to take place the complex nature of the main stimulus has to be given attention first and foremost,and that is always the one provided game after game.
All other training has to be balanced against that if improvement and performance are seeked.
And in the case of the Goalkeeper…no one else can do his job,while on the field!

Perhaps we need to consider the emotional background against which all competition is performed in addition to the physical stimulus. As physiological changes are clearly associated with emotional state (for example, the clearly documented negative effects of ‘stress’ on health), perhaps the physical stimulus from competition is above and beyond what would first be apparent due to the unique emotional, and thus physiological, environment in which all competitions are held?

Does the simple act of preparing for a competition both physically (warming-up) and emotionally (‘arousal’) create a rather large stimulus even if that competition is not held for whatever reason, particularly at the professional/international level where the stakes are so much higher?

Considering the frequency of soccer competitions, perhaps we underestimate the true load by looking only what happens physically during the game. What of other sports with fixed and frequent competition schedules?

[svincenz]

@Race_Radio

The greats such as (Diego Maradonna, George Best, Di Stefano etc) spent hours upon hours everyday/week speed juggling, usually a smaller ball than matchball (size 5), regular juggling, tennis/ping-pong/golf balls etc, wall work developing left & right feet usually till there feet got very sore, on the beach from dusk till dawn (if they had access), the beach having positive effects when applying the same skills on turf.

Thats gone now. All they had then was a ball. I never see good two footed players anymore, never see a player with a great Maradonna-esque first touch, them qualities (balance/coordination) have to be trained everyday (which are mentally demanding), in its place now is the internet, computer games for players etc… A lot do gym work, some with good programs, but greatness isn’t made there, although a player can certainly reep the benefits.

Its on the player to dedicate his life to the ball. And when I mean dedicate his life, I mean DEDICATE his life. Maradonna slept with his ball.

Carlos Tevez needed soccer to stay alive. When your life is dependant on it, you’d guess he would get pretty far.

Actually, as far as I know, it was only Maradona’s the documented case of juggling with small balls (I did that too, but not documented). An interesting anectode is when during half time of an important match, Maradona began juggling with a lemon in the changing room to ease the tension off.
It’s not true that you don’t see any two footed players. There are many of them, probably (it is my impression, but I’m pretty confident) more now than years ago. Maradona is a typical example of using only one foot. As for sleeping with ball, yeah, I probably did that when I was a child, but I’m happy to having changed that in favour of girls.

Now, RR is throwing here a bunch of anecdotes and there is nothing wrong about that, apart that an underlying theory is necessary to meaningfully organize the information, and I don’t see any such theory.
For everyone interested, I suggest a couple of articles the nyt published, one it was published a couple of years ago about skill development of Russian tennis players in a Moscow club (then it became the book The Talent Code) and the other one is about Ajax Academy, this one was published I think a couple of weeks ago. Both very interesting.

[svincenz]

@ESTI

This is excellent insight. Charlie and I developed a graph to show what a progression of technical, tactical and physical development in a player might look like. The key point is in developing players, technical ability must first be addressed, then tactical development. AT this point, probably in mid teen years, physical development will begin with weights, more formal fitness etc.

Even in many undeveloped nations, athletes around age 18 are selected for national teams, regional teams etc, and this is where their physical prep begins. Up til that point, they spend many hours, as mentioned above, playing in streets, maybe some leagues etc.

Unfortunately, because anyone can start a club team, we now have U7 travel teams playing for “national” titles etc. Also, in many clubs in my area, the best coaches are with the oldest teams. It would appear more logical to have the best technical coaches with the young players, and not the least experienced, as I have seen.

In the US, there are progressions for player development. I am curious about other countries as well.

Recreation–>club (Select)–>club (premier) -->academy team–>club/academy teams playing in regional leagues (compared to state leagues)—>multiregional leagues

On another track, is the process for selection for the national teams. State Olympic Development—>Regional teams—> national teams

There is a lot of political issues for borderline players at the state level, and because of it, many players do not tryout after U14 for these teams.

Will post more later when I have time.

Interesting points:
A few brief comments:

• I agree that the emphasis has to be put chronologically on technical, tactical, athletical skills. At the same time, humans are very plastic before 9-12 years of age, with consequences also on lifetime gene expression (as a general phenomenon, of course). I was wondering if by not trying to direct gene expressione in the early years, we are losing the best time to influence it. The same can be said for learning foreign language, mathematical skills and so on. Now, read biographies and you can understand lots of things, read textbooks and you will soon get caught is some dogmatic views. Mine are only points for discussion, of course.

• As for coaches, I don’t think only in terms of quality, but also where the coach fits better in. It’s very different working with little ones and late teens, and you know that better than me, for example I much prefer working with adults, others prefer working with late teens and so on. It is the same in schooling.

• I think an African nation won’t win the WC for at least the next fourth editions. This is because, despite the incredible phyisical and athletical abilities (I remember Nigeria in 1994, incredible athletes!), they underestimate the value of the tactical component. It’s a cultural thing, maybe it will change, maybe not.

• next time I will write about how the progression of player development is in Italy.

[LBSS]

For those interested, the Ajax article is here: How a Soccer Star is Made.

[Race_Radio]

@"svincenz

It’s not true that you don’t see any two footed players. There are many of them.

Could you please name one?.

I have watched the whole of the World cup & I didn’t see one player zipping it about at will with both feet with 10-60m pin-point passes. Zidane in my eyes was the last great, pinging cross field passes with accuracy & success.

@svincenz

Actually, as far as I know, it was only Maradona’s the documented case of juggling with small balls (I did that too, but not documented).

Particularly the South Americans, many whom who mastered juggling, some more so than Maradonna. Some of them were so “pure” & controlled.

@LBSS

For those interested, the Ajax article is here: How a Soccer Star is Made.

This is an interesting article on the progression of player development…

The future for the England team is frightening. Our game needs radical changes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1291591/GLENN-HODDLE-The-future-England-team-frightening-Our-game-needs-radical-changes.html

[NumberTwo]

@svincenz

Interesting points:
A few brief comments:

• I agree that the emphasis has to be put chronologically on technical, tactical, athletical skills. At the same time, humans are very plastic before 9-12 years of age, with consequences also on lifetime gene expression (as a general phenomenon, of course). I was wondering if by not trying to direct gene expressione in the early years, we are losing the best time to influence it. The same can be said for learning foreign language, mathematical skills and so on. Now, read biographies and you can understand lots of things, read textbooks and you will soon get caught is some dogmatic views. Mine are only points for discussion, of course.

I agree. A good book to read is “Why Michael Couldn’t Hit: And Other Tales of the Neurology of Sports” written by Harold L. Klawans, a professor of neurology at Rush Medical College in Chicago. In a portion of the book, Klawans discusses the concept of “windows of opportunity” for skill development.

“His 1996 book, “Why Michael Couldn’t Hit and Other Tales of the Neurology of Sports,” looked at the greatness–or lack thereof–of several sports legends. In the book, he argues that basketball superstar Michael Jordan failed as a minor-league baseball player because he had not acquired the baseball skills he needed at a critical time in childhood when the brain develops certain motor skills.”

I highly recommend anyone interested in developing athletes from a young age read this book.

[Race_Radio]

And just a word on Ajax, they talk a good game, have lots of money but should do better for all the talk. They finished runner-up to FC Twente in the 2009–10 Eredivisie League. In fact the last time they won there league campaign was way back in 2003-04. Had a dismal Champions League campaign.

So take what they have to say with a grain of salt.

“As Ajax battle to stay in the Europa League against Juventus (2009–10), it is clear that the former kings of youth policy have lost their way”.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/feb/25/ajax-champions-league-europa-youth

[svincenz]

@Race_Radio

Could you please name one?.

I have watched the whole of the World cup & I didn’t see one player zipping it about at will with both feet with 10-60m pin-point passes. Zidane in my eyes was the last great, pinging cross field passes with accuracy & success.

Particularly the South Americans, many whom who mastered juggling, some more so than Maradonna. Some of them were so “pure” & controlled.

This is an interesting article on the progression of player development…

The future for the England team is frightening. Our game needs radical changes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1291591/GLENN-HODDLE-The-future-England-team-frightening-Our-game-needs-radical-changes.html

RR,
I name one, as I am very familiar with Italian players: Zambrotta, two equal feet. Also for Pirlo is the same. But there are many, and maybe it’s only my impression, I don’t have any data, that the number of two footed increased in the last years. But it would be an interesting study for sure.

[Race_Radio]

@NumberTwo

In the book, he argues that basketball superstar Michael Jordan failed as a minor-league baseball player because he had not acquired the baseball skills he needed at a critical time in childhood when the brain develops certain motor skills."

Could we all also include the massive fact, its apples & oranges on the extreme scale. Would he have been a successful Tour golfer post basketball?. Probably not.

I disagree with Harold L. Klawans, there isn’t a “critical time in childhood” IMO. You either have it or you don’t. Motor skills can be developed through masses of repetition & dedication, way past childhood or a young age. Look at Ben Hogan, Ted Williams etc.

I have taught 30+ years olds how to perfect speed juggling a soccer ball, using both feet to pass the ball, which I presume are motor skills. Theres no critical time, some develop it, some aren’t born to do it.

[vedette]

Diego Forlan from Uruguay scored from distance with both feet.

[svincenz]

@NumberTwo

I agree. A good book to read is “Why Michael Couldn’t Hit: And Other Tales of the Neurology of Sports” written by Harold L. Klawans, a professor of neurology at Rush Medical College in Chicago. In a portion of the book, Klawans discusses the concept of “windows of opportunity” for skill development.

“His 1996 book, “Why Michael Couldn’t Hit and Other Tales of the Neurology of Sports,” looked at the greatness–or lack thereof–of several sports legends. In the book, he argues that basketball superstar Michael Jordan failed as a minor-league baseball player because he had not acquired the baseball skills he needed at a critical time in childhood when the brain develops certain motor skills.”

I highly recommend anyone interested in developing athletes from a young age read this book.

Yes, maybe the discussion is getting too technical, but there is an interesting paper that was published in Nature in 1997 about learning foreign languages. Now I explain why I consider that important also for training.
It was shown that people learning other languages before 12 (more or less) have a single brain region for generating complex speech, while people learning foreign languages after 12 have two brain regions for generating complex speech http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/15/science/when-an-adult-adds-a-language-it-s-one-brain-two-systems.html.
Now, I wonder if it happens the same also with motor skills. Of course, having a single brain region gives advantage, but the implications are also that maybe the way of learning after a certain age has to be appropriate for the different modifications happening in the brain.
At the end, a good part of the adaptions that training stimulates, especially the neural part, consist in learning.

[Race_Radio]

@svincenz

RR,
I name one, as I am very familiar with Italian players: Zambrotta, two equal feet. Also for Pirlo is the same. But there are many, and maybe it’s only my impression, I don’t have any data, that the number of two footed increased in the last years. But it would be an interesting study for sure.

There has been an increase, particulary in wingers. They can cross the ball with both feet, but I still don’t consider them to be great two footed players. John Terry is a two footed player, Phil Neville is two footed, there not great two footed players.

In England, I think Glenn Hoddle was our last best two footed player. Great confidence to pick passes all over the field with both feet at any time. Little dinks over the top of players both feet, curling it around players, through balls, everything so natural which came through hours upon years of drilling it into himself.

[no23]

@ASheaff

Perhaps we need to consider the emotional background against which all competition is performed in addition to the physical stimulus. As physiological changes are clearly associated with emotional state (for example, the clearly documented negative effects of ‘stress’ on health), perhaps the physical stimulus from competition is above and beyond what would first be apparent due to the unique emotional, and thus physiological, environment in which all competitions are held?

Does the simple act of preparing for a competition both physically (warming-up) and emotionally (‘arousal’) create a rather large stimulus even if that competition is not held for whatever reason, particularly at the professional/international level where the stakes are so much higher?

Considering the frequency of soccer competitions, perhaps we underestimate the true load by looking only what happens physically during the game. What of other sports with fixed and frequent competition schedules?

Of course it does!
But that’s the same for every sport/event.

[NumberTwo]

@Race_Radio

Could we all also include the massive fact, its apples & oranges on the extreme scale. Would he have been a successful Tour golfer post basketball?. Probably not.

I disagree with Harold L. Klawans, there isn’t a “critical time in childhood” IMO. You either have it or you don’t. Motor skills can be developed through masses of repetition & dedication, way past childhood or a young age. Look at Ben Hogan, Ted Williams etc.

I have taught 30+ years olds how to perfect speed juggling a soccer ball, using both feet to pass the ball, which I presume are motor skills. Theres no critical time, some develop it, some aren’t born to do it.

I disagree. There are critical windows for specific skills that involve velocity and coordination, as well as strength and coordination. Combining coordination with execution of skill at high levels of power and velocity is different than hitting a stationary golf ball or juggling a soccer ball. Having worked with a number of top level gymnasts, I can see exactly where this plays a role.

Not all motor skills are created equal. I see it on a daily basis. I believe if you choose to ignore this fact, you could be missing out.

[NumberTwo]

@svincenz

Yes, maybe the discussion is getting too technical, but there is an interesting paper that was published in Nature in 1997 about learning foreign languages. Now I explain why I consider that important also for training.
It was shown that people learning other languages before 12 (more or less) have a single brain region for generating complex speech, while people learning foreign languages after 12 have two brain regions for generating complex speech http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/15/science/when-an-adult-adds-a-language-it-s-one-brain-two-systems.html.
Now, I wonder if it happens the same also with motor skills. Of course, having a single brain region gives advantage, but the implications are also that maybe the way of learning after a certain age has to be appropriate for the different modifications happening in the brain.
At the end, a good part of the adaptions that training stimulates, especially the neural part, consist in learning.

I am in agreement. There is so much we don’t know about brain development and the subtleties of learning and adaptation - physical, intellectual, emotional, etc. Everything counts and it should be analyzed as such.

[no23]

@NumberTwo

I disagree. There are critical windows for specific skills that involve velocity and coordination, as well as strength and coordination. Combining coordination with execution of skill at high levels of power and velocity is different than hitting a stationary golf ball or juggling a soccer ball. Having worked with a number of top level gymnasts, I can see exactly where this plays a role.

Not all motor skills are created equal. I see it on a daily basis. I believe if you choose to ignore this fact, you could be missing out.

I agree also
It’s not an exact science yet, but the patterns have been established with a great many athletes and not just athletes - achievers in many domains.