Technical advice for a young hurdler?

Track & Field Hurdles
34

I think the trail leg is coming to the front a lot better. A chest height camera view of the drills from head on will confirm it but it looked like on the drills your foot was coming over the line. The is coming down and then up and back causing trunk twisting on touchdown. I would probably cue you to stop the arm at the hip and see how you respond to that.

I agree with block starts as well. Do you do many medicine ball throws? Even a few sets of 3-5 throws during speed days will help. Without looking at the block set up and hip angles its hard to say more.

Keep working at it!

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[video=youtube_share;BetXqpmexbk]http://youtu.be/BetXqpmexbk[/video]

put in another session. i think that my trail leg is actually a lot better now! i tried to keep your guy’s advice for the bent trail arm like a sprinting position… but it’s a lot harder than just going out and trying to do it. my lead arm i think is better, but i think i can still improve it by keeping it on my forehead instead of too far in front of my body because it always makes me rotate.

ESTI - I did not know about the benefits of med ball throws. I guess that’s why I always pop-up near the start in my 100 races. I’ve read up some good exercises and how it can help with my start. I think it’ll help me a lot in the future. Are there any tips on using it? I was thinking about doing it between my drills in my warm-up.

questions:
just out of curiosity - how fast do you guys think i can run for the 110MH (39")? At the minute, I definitely think I am capable of a low 15. Just by watching me go over the first/second hurdle, do you have any guess at how fast I can run it?
What’s the biggest difference between me and your near sub-14 hurdler ESTI? Is it raw speed or just technique or what is it?

Judging by the looks of it - I think I am capable of taking the gold at the BCHS, and making the BC Team for Legion Nationals. But running 14.6 and anything lower this year would make it so much better…

36

The lead leg is getting around the front better than before. The reach arm on take off looks ok, but try to pause the video around 51 sec at touchdown. Notice the extreme trunk rotation with the arm nearly completely behind the back. I have found trying to get the hand under the trail leg knee often stops the trunk rotation. When my athletes arm gets too high he rotates the same way. When he keeps his hand low its a thing of beauty.

ESTI - I did not know about the benefits of med ball throws. I guess that’s why I always pop-up near the start in my 100 races. I’ve read up some good exercises and how it can help with my start. I think it’ll help me a lot in the future. Are there any tips on using it? I was thinking about doing it between my drills in my warm-up…

IF you can, try to get the GPP download. It has all the info there for throws.

just out of curiosity - how fast do you guys think i can run for the 110MH (39")? At the minute, I definitely think I am capable of a low 15. Just by watching me go over the first/second hurdle, do you have any guess at how fast I can run it?
What’s the biggest difference between me and your near sub-14 hurdler ESTI? Is it raw speed or just technique or what is it? …

In these videos, how far apart are the hurdles? Regular height and regularly spaced? Take a look through my journal on 110H.

We have found our success and improvements come from reducing hurdle height and spacing so that touchdown times are rhtymic to the goal time. We are shooting for sub 13.60 and I look at various hurdle charts to get an idea of what the touchdowns should be and then put him in position to achieve those. At this point, the only time he goes full height and spacing is in a race. Ideally for him, 9 yard spacing at 36" leads to 1.0 splits from H2-6 in training. When we trained inside the hallway, it was 8.5 yards in trainers to get the 1.0 splits.

He is also very fast, running in the 10.80 range, having done training runs at 120m of sub 13.2 and 150 at 16.1 4 weeks ago. I have used the speed first for several weeks with some hurdle work and then went to hurdle specific work with minimal maintance speed/SE work.

37

Is it not weird for the hurdler to practice at a lower height then come into a race and race at a different height…? That idea sounds good and I would like to try it but my only worry is that since 36" and 39" are different, the difference between training and racing would be too different. What are your thoughts on that?

And wow, he is a lot faster than me :p. I recorded a 11.74 just this week so he’s around 1 second faster than me!

[video=youtube_share;aGKB3PGCq8Y]http://youtu.be/aGKB3PGCq8Y[/video]

Here is my race of 15.21 :

I know I’m definitely capable of a sub-15 now. This track is not that fast. And with higher competition, both quantity, and quality, my time will definitely improve. I hit the first hurdle, which is weird because I do a lot of sprints over the first hurdle. During the race I didn’t feel like I was floating the hurdles as I did earlier in the season, but I felt like the whole hurdling motion could be faster. There was a “time-warp” I believe. My lead arm and trail arm didn’t behave properly but it’s good; I know what to fix now. Looking back at the footage, I felt that I would benefit from my hurdle endurance work - I got less snappy over the last few hurdles.

What are your thoughts on this race ESTI?

38

It is very common for hurdlers to practice lower heights to get used to the rhythm/timing/feeling of going faster. My hurdlers are on low hurdles (or spaced closer) at least half the time.

I think you are used to being higher and slower over the hurdles, so as your technique improves and you get lower/faster, you don’t make as much use out of your speed as you could. You are hovering/pausing a big before your lead leg comes down and your trail leg comes through. Try pulling your trail leg through sooner.

39

I took advice of Ange based on what Charlie had her do. We have not had any issues hitting hurdles. Tuesday after a solid warm up, great drill sessions, we did 3 runs over 5 hurdles spaced 9 yards at 36". hand time splits were near 1.0. He then had 20 minutes and ran a 13.6 hand time. Execution was incredible. No video unfortunately. Below is his race Saturday. 14.41 FAT into head wind. Technically not his greatest from what I have seen.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63548988/115_1237.MOV

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Jc,

As a general rule you do not want change much right now as you competing. Changing anything discounts what has already been accomplished from your existing training.
One thing you can do is post one week sample of your training with as much detail as possible. Post what you did for one week or what you plan to do for one week.
I see some inconsistent mobility from your trail leg which indicates tightness. Sometimes your trail leg looked more mobile.
How many days are you training?
How many speed days are you doing?
Have you been doing tempo at all?

41

" And wow, he is a lot faster than me :p. I recorded a 11.74 just this week so he’s around 1 second faster than me! "

Try and resist to compare yourself to someone JC.
Esti is a coach and he is watching his athlete and just focus on where you are at and once you post a sample of what your training we will be able to see if and where some small changes might help you right now.
Athletes with highly organized coaches have an advantage but you are young and interested in learning so be patient and learn as much as you can. Perhaps down the road you may see value ( or not ) in finding a coach to train you.

42

@Ange

After a week of training, I’ve put together a few questions.

This is what I do for tempo: 4x100m, 3x200m, 4x100m. I focus on smooth running and “ok” form. I’ve realize when I incorporate too much sprint position factors, I go too fast and the running no longer becomes smooth. I run faster and naturally, get more tired. So if I drive my arms up to my face, the rep might come out really fast. But after this the speed becomes inconsistent - something I believe I should not go for. How important is the consistency of the tempo reps. Eg. In 100m - I run a 13.4, 13.5, 13.4… versus 13.1, 13.9, 14.2. Also after reps of 100m I walk back to the start line - is this too much rest? It’s usually like 50sec -60sec give or take. 200m is around 120sec. What are the recommended rest times of tempo? I read in CFTS that Charlie would only implement 50m walk. Also how would tempo sessions differ from week to week. I keep this workout the same for every tempo day of the week. Looking through training logs of other athletes on here - they have a difference between ‘easy’ tempo and a normal one. How would I progress in this regard?

Also for speed I usually do a step-up approach. So something like 1x2 hurdles, 2x3 hurdles… Same question applies here - how would I progress/periodize this? I hear a lot about short to long run approach/long to short run approach. That is beyond my understanding - what is your light on that and how can I apply it?

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@ESTI

Yes I had a little epiphany yesterday. I back with my “club”, which I train long jump with. Hopefully I can do some hurdle stuff with the coach but that is only max 1 day a week. LJ coach said that the last three strides of your run up should be short. They are not short because you take less of a step, they are short because they are quick. Same goes for bounding - long strides are slow. I applied this very simple thinking into hurdles - if I practice going through the barriers at a shorter distance, also lower height, it will be quicker. And at the race, it will still be quick and I won’t hit the hurdles because each step should be longer (more adrenaline). So training through the shorter distances will have the neurological imprint of moving fast, and once at the race, these quick steps will be aided by the adrenaline - going through each hurdle at the necessary length, but quick!

It’s amazing how something so simple can make me understand something much more than that. I really want to give shortening the distance a try, but like Ange said, I don’t want to introduce it suddenly.

*Congrats on your athlete’s 13.7 race! Seems like the goal of 13.65 FAT is near.

@rainy.here

I rewatched the video a few more times and realized, my trail leg is stalling. After yesterday’s session I think I improve it a little bit further. Let’s see if I can keep it up at the meet. Also, the BCHS is moved to Langley, hopefully I’ll catch you there in 2 weeks? :slight_smile:

44

If this is meant to be extensive tempo a la Charlie Francis, you’re running too fast. You should run the 100m in about 16s and walk 50m in between.

45

So I just finished the BCHS Provincials today (equivalent to State finals in US). A few thoughts:

I qualified into 110MH with a time 15.21 - the fastest seed time. The second fastest was 15.7 I believe. I gained a lot of hubris because this margin is wide and I believed it was not my limit, since I ran it on a slow track, with essentially no competition. But throughout the week I’ve been getting nervous so I was afraid the race might go as planned. At the start today, when I was doing my warm-up, gave myself plenty of time, I saw other people, doing drills that I couldn’t do. I shouldn’t have felt this way, but I got afraid that these people will beat me. I was in heat 1, lane 4, the last lane. I just sat there and slowly got into my zone. I knew all the training was done and I just had to execute. When the starter called start, one person went off beside me. And I was really glad it wasn’t me who had false-started. Afterwards, the starter said that none of the sprinters were in “position”, so the guy was not handed the deadening red card. We were called back into position and I just focused again. I knew I had to push fast and good; I was thinking these guys are going to eat me up if I don’t! As soon as I heard the gun I was out. The guy beside me had a phenomenal start, but I didn’t focus on him. After the first hurdle, he disappeared from my sight. And I was really glad at this time, since that means the race was against the clock - no more pressure. I just executed and all I could think about was my lead arm. “Don’t bring it too far back” “Stop it at the knee!” After I got off the last hurdle, I glanced at the clock. It was a 14. I was very glad, I knew that 15.21 wasn’t my limit. And now all my pressure has been thwarted. I qualified for the finals and I was gonna show them a even better time.

After the 100m heat I got on the track - there was approximately 30 minutes left until my finals. The heats took a long time, they were 20 minutes behind schedule. But I knew a full warm up wasn’t needed. They called our finals pretty soon. We got on the line and someone false started again. I was kind of nervous at the start, I didn’t want to push it too fast out - seeing how many false starts there were at the meet, I didn’t want to take the chance. We got back on our line and waited for the set. I held my breath. And as soon as I heard the gun, the two next fastest guys popped out already. I knew I had a bad start. I went over the first hurdle, I knew I had to catch them. I went over around 5 hurdles and I was in front of them! I knew if I wanted to secure the win, I needed to push it faster. And then the worst thing a hurdler could do happened - I smashed the hurdle hard on hurdle 7/8. I slowed down so much, and the two guys went past me again. I got back on my feet and started sprinting, I felt like I could catch them. The winner ran 14.96 - a time I ran in the heats, 2nd was 15.19 - a time I could easily have beat. And I, the favourite - ran a glacial pace of 15.38. Immediately after my race, I wondered how it would feel if I could relive that race again. A feeling of sorrow that is congruent to someone close to you who just passed away. What if…

My breath was quickening. And one of our sister’s school coaches comes chat with me, giving me many, many encouraging words. I talked with a graduated alumni about the race - mainly about how aggressive, and focused I was, and especially about the disdain created by that 3rd last hurdle. I analyzed my race with him. He told me I had a bad start but I caught them. And I was thinking deep down - how said it really is seeing the winner running a time that you were completely, perfectly, capable of running.

After the race, when I was heading to the award ceremony, I heard a conversation about a hurdles race (this was approximately 20 minutes after the finals). He was saying how a guy who was leading and these two guys sandwiching him beat him off at the end. The leading guy caught a hurdle - a genuine representation of the worst and quickest way a medalist can head off into the bottom of the results. And that guy they were talking about, after many minutes of the race - was me. It felt really cool, having people analyze your race. I guess it was a good day :slight_smile:

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Yeah that was unfortunate crashing hard into those 2 hurdles jc. I was going to introduce myself but was busy and never got a chance. I have a video of your race I’ll upload later. Do you have a hurdle coach yet? A friend of mine who’s a pretty good hurdle coach and is one of the all-time fastest youth hurdlers in BC said she’d work with you. :slight_smile: PM me if interested.

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[video=youtube_share;wMyD-hnBk5s]http://youtu.be/wMyD-hnBk5s[/video]

I was going to do a meet tomorrow (Sunday). It is at one of my biggest favourite tracks in the province. Apparently it’s made of the same material as the Beijing 2008 Olympic venue. But I handed in my forms late and was not able to participate in it. I don’t regret it as I was introduced to a lot of new training elements and I want to stabilize them first. Our club’s new coach is called Derek. He is a very busy guy and has a long history of coaching. Just yesterday, when he was breaking down the start of the race and demonstrating the infamous ‘toe drag’ - I was just watching and saying “That looks so damn cool”. He knows so much and hopefully we can lower our time together. We haven’t started doing hurdling work yet but I believe it will be there by next week. I want to ask him some questions like discounting the hurdle height/distances, special end. stuff… etc. I feel really fast after practicing the ‘toe drag’ with him. Every time I’m at home just walking, I’ll always have the first two steps as low heel recovery then eventually move it up to high knee mechanics - it’s so crazy how cool it feels. My next meet is Saturday - I’ll do the 110MH at 36" - this is great because I get to see a ‘speedier’ run. There were many comments in this thread about lower the height and decreasing distance in between during training. I realized that all the fast guys do this - ESTI’s 13.6 athlete, Steve McGill (and most likely Wayne Davis, 13.08!!) and even Aries Meritt (12.80!!!). It is not a coincidence! And after watching my video, it seems that I really am REALLY slow compared to these fast guys. So running the 36" will definitely capture more speed, and hopefully I can carry this to 39". I will also want to run the 200m. I was reading some hurdlesfirst posts (McGill’s blog) and he mentioned that sprint hurdlers should really want to work at the longer distances earlier in the season - to build up more endurance. And again watching my race, I lost the snappiness near the end, and it must be linked to not running enough distances such as 200, 400, 400mH etc… Last year, at our cities (USA equivalent of regionals?) I did A LOT of 4x400m, 400MH and I seemed to finish better at my races last year. I want to touch the 200m more and hopefully I’ll see some positive carry-over into my speed end. of the sprint hurdles.

Also some stuff about school.

I’m grade 11 and I’ll be graduating next year. The class of 13 grad ceremony was yesterday and I really thought about how fast high school is ending. I have to plan for post secondary. Before this year I was always wanting to do track just for high school and just go to a university close here - track takes up too much energy and time after high school. But really watching the olympic replays on youtube and being submerged in the essence of track and field meets, I realized I really love it. The olympic energy is absolutely riveting; I’m watching the 100m final on youtube right now and just through the screen, I can feel this electric atmosphere. I want to continue this ecstasy after high school. The question is: should I continue my education/track career here, in BC, or should I take it south, to the states. Taking it to the USA - the highest quality and quantity of hurdlers in the USA will definitely catapult my track career miles ahead. But can I make it? My PB probably would not even make the state finals in the USA; will they accept me, and even give me a scholarship? Do any coaches down there linger around on this forum, if so, please shed some light. Cheers!

48

Regarding making NCAA teams & scholarships:

Because the signing season for NCAA scholarships starts is February, track athletes are judged primarily on their performances in grades 10-11 (and the summer after grade 11). Scholarship money for guys requires some pretty serious times (which I’m not familiar with for male hurdlers); ESTII could tell you what the range is for when some money starts being offered. USA can get very expensive if you aren’t getting mostly full-ride, though you could walk on to places assuming you show progression into next year. The decision about Canada vs. USA is a personal one that should be discussed with family. There is a pretty long thread on it on the can.milesplit.com forums you might want to read through. I have a graduating athlete staying in Canada next year despite getting full-ride offers from good schools.

One thing to note: the BC Team standard is 14.80 with the 110m 36" hurdles, which I think is within your capabilities if training goes well and you put together a good race.

49

jcc110m
You have really done an excellent job virtually on your own without much direction or coaching or planning from anyone other than yourself … right?
This is not an easy thing because the kids that you have been competing with have been training consistently with clubs and coaches for a while now.
Your ability to have analyzed what you were doing has been incredible. Pay attention to this analytic side of who you are as it’s a valuable life skill.
Notice that if were aware who came out of the blocks first the race was already not yours. Essentially you panicked. It happens and it’s tough when it does as you know it could have been a very different result.
You mentioned something else that is a difficult thought to have before a race. It’s the feeling you had that you were not prepared. You began to loose focus on going out and repeating what you knew you already did in the heats.

50

I think this is an important aspect in coaching. When you begin to wind-down from competing, maybe think about coaching if it interests you jc! We certainly need more good coaches.

51

Thanks for the kind words Ange and rainy. That’s a characteristic that people around me never pointed out, even myself. I guess that’s cool. :stuck_out_tongue:

I did some very interesting stuff with my race footage. I was looking back at ESTI’s State Title thread and again, found some extremely useful information. He mentioned (also in this thread) that the hurdle spacing should match the pace you want to race at. Moving in the hurdle would create the shuffle speed needed to run your desired times. I took that to heart and decided to calculate my splits via frame by frame playback.

The FPS i captured at was 29.97. I’ll round up the numbers just to make it easier.

2.6 > 1.2 > 1.2 > 1.1 > 1.1 > 1.2 > 1.2 > 1.2 > 1.2 > 1.2 > 1.8 to finish

Most of the 1.2’s were 1.167. Only the last two were 1.234, 1.201 respectively.

It shows me the splits I need to run the 14.0. According to Brent McFarlane’s touchdown chart, I would need approx 1.0-1.1 through the hurdles.

I will try to move in the hurdles to create the pace which renders the 1.1 split. I will probably move it in by one yard until I hit the times. This should be very, very helpful to my speed. I am very slow in between the hurdles.

52

JC,

I have found schools will be interested once you run times in a zone they look for. Bigger schools recruit early so Junior years are important because after junior (grade 11) summer, the next time you will race hurdles might be indoors grade 12 year. My hurdler did not run great times as grade 11. I don’t think he was top 100 in his class that year. It was a great indoor season that got him noticed. Just keep training and getting better and finding races that you can run well at. It appears there is not a lot of competition around you. Seek out more races that might provide it, because it is likely you will run considerably faster.

I have “used” McFarlane’s tables too, but did not find them very valid for us. I found the first hurdle was quick and every hurdle after lead to really slow prediction times, which was not true, and double checked with my video touchdown analysis. You may find it works for you.

Reflecting back, I would say working to hurdle 6 at race pace with spacing is key. I noticed you mentioned endurance and thinking about going out to 400m. That might work in North Carolina where weather is nice 10-11 months a year. Where I am in Michigan, and you in BC, chances are that isn’t true.

For hurdle endurance outdoors, 5 step hurdling is highly recommended (I never used it) and also 12 hurdles. I can’t recall exactly but Aries uses a 12 hurdle workout as a “Race predictor”. Hitting a certain time leads to certain race times in 110H.

For working the first few hurdles, see if you can run next to a sprinter without hurdles. Maybe a fast girl or average boy. We did this a lot where I would have my 11.0 sprint do starts to 20m vs the hurlder (2 hurdles). He wasn’t challenged much out of the blocks and to work on getting out quicker this is how I arranged it. The more speed you carry into hurdle 1 the faster the subsequent hurdles will be and the more important the race model rhythm becomes.

Based on the 14.96 video, I would also suggest a more aggressive arm action to pull the trail leg through faster. On video, count frames to track flight times. The fastest we ever got was 0.30 for most of the race. His grade 11 year he was 0.33-0.36. You can see how improving 0.03 for 10 hurdles plus race rhythm improvements can lead to huge drops in times.

53

June 26, 2013

So today marks the first 36" 110mh race of the year. I’m a youth (16-17) but I wanted to qualify for the BC Junior team before this week so I predominately raced over 39". Unfortunately, I couldn’t reach the standard, which was 14.70. Boo. Now onto qualifying for the bc youth team.

Today I had to go to a completely new track. I’ve never been there so I was nervous on the bus trip there, which took 2 hours, exactly the estimation I had on mind. Their track schedule was ‘rolling’. I’ve never heard this term before but I assumed they do all the sprint events then eventually get to the longer distances. After they moved through the 100m heats, contrary to my thought, they did not run 110mh. But I was okay with that. I prepared my warmup well enough. Flash commented on Ben Johnson’s race thread, and he mentioned that Ben said that he just lets the warm up happen, not really rushing it. That was very interesting. In speed trap, Charlie mentions that Ben was napping away and when he was forcibly waken up, he said something along… “Don’t worry, I’m ready.”

My question is if your warm up is ahead of the planned schedule (which is good, rather be early than late), what should you do to stay warm and remain the laser focus. Ben demonstrates that in that story so I’m very curious as I want to anticipate if I’m ahead schedule.

So I was hoping to race between 7:30-8:00pm, but my race stalled to 9:20pm ish. That’s one hour off. I want to prepared more next time. But it’s good that I had this issue here, so I know how to act when the big championship meets come. But they should follow the schedule better as the races become more significant.

On the race: I thought it was a pretty technically sound race. But my ankle is not 100%. After the warm-up sprints each time, I was limping but I made sure not to step the breaks suddenly, in case the issue is exacerbated. I had a good start (relative terms). I kept my trail arm bent, behind hip (this got better through the race, I felt in the earlier hurdles it was in front of the hip). I kept my lead arm tight (not good enough yet). I made sure to pull it back fast so my trail leg could move faster. The problem was that I wasn’t aware of my legs. I’m sure that my trail leg was dull. Slow turnover. On focus, since it was long after my prediction of the schedule, I was less-focused. I could see my shadow ahead of me, and I was looking at that. Bad. Not enough focus. When I finish off the hurdle I kept looking at the clock on the side. I’ll stop this.

There was only 1 other competitor. I blew him off at hurdle 2 when he smashed a hurdle. So I was pretty much running a one man race. It sucks because my recent competition have pretty much zero competition.

I ran a 15.21. Absolutely not what I had in mind. I was expecting a 14.6. BC youth team standard is 14.8. To me it was a pretty technically sound race. I think regarding the warmup, little competition, did I lose quite a bit of time. My personal best was 15.04 last year. I ran a 15.17 at a 110MH 39" just last 2-3 weeks… smashing every hurdle. It was quite disappointing, because I thought the race was good! I’m hoping to shave off quite a bit of time at the next meet.

Injury:

I ‘tweaked’ my ankle last week or so. When I was running the 200m (I mentioned something about speed end. last post) I was in lane 1. The sharpest turn was in lane 1. I probably entered the turn too sharp so there was an imbalance of force at my ankle? It is only on my right so it makes perfect sense. I didn’t feel anything in retrospect, but 4-5 days over when it start to feel tight. After two track practices (speed sessions) I was limping. The worst part is that after the speed reps I’ll go cruising off, which is when it hurts the most. I made sure I iced, long socks, lots of rest and elevation. Essentialy RICE without compression. There is no bruising, nothing physically different than a normal, healthy ankle. It is only when I am inverting (i believe that is the correct term, turning my ankle inside) that my ankle is in pain. Any other movement does not hurt it. It is starting to worry me since it’s been lingering for a week. In the soleus strain thread, someone mentions that if postural muscles get injured, it’ll take a while for it to heal. Since my ankle felt great before it started to hurt and it happened suddenly, I didn’t expect the injury to last this long (1 week). I think long stress = long injury short stress = short injury. I believe my reason was short and sudden.

Sorry for the bad English in this post. Hopefully it’s somewhat readable.