Socialism/Capitalism?

I am not calling everyone who doesn’t advocate pure capitalism a socialist (although sometimes maybe a collectivist, which would be true). I have even attempted to differentiate between some of the forms of capitalism. This all has been ignored for the “sake of real world talk.” You want real world talk? Fine. 61,911,000 U.S.S.R., 35,236,000 China (PRC), 20,946,000 Germany, 10,075,000 China (KMT), 964,000 Japan, 12.6% unemployment in a Western country, average income of $18k (below the US poverty line) in a Western country, 350,000+ in jail for consensual crimes (the epitome of “for the good of the collective”) in a Western country.

I don’t really understand the point you are trying to make about capitalism not being able to work in the “real world” scarface. You bring up the notion that people will not give up their leverage for nothing and how the “powerful prey on the weak.” While this may be all lovely, it neglects the fact that is should not be able to be legally done in the first place. Regardless of how the government is voted in (pure democracy, representative, etc.), they should not have the ability to take away people’s rights. In a constitution, this should be clearly outlined, so neither the government who is to enforce the laws, nor the business that is to follow them is crossing the line.

You answered your own question: It is already happening when it shouldn’t (the mighty crush the weak), and not even in a complete laissez-fair environment – that’s the real word! Laissez-fair would just exacerbate the tension even further.

Democracy is for the people, they should decide what laws are created, followed or dropped; the constitution did not just start to exist, it was created, and should be changed if found necessary. Perhaps not perfect for every single man, but nothing is.

The deal is: the richest 20% owns 86% of the world’s economy (or GDP if you like); the poorest 20% owns 1%; the middleclass (= 60% of world population) owns 13%. That would be the starting point for a laissez-fair economy; it doesn’t take a genius to figure there could be some trouble ahead in the pure capitalistic paradise – there is already trouble in an almost capitalistic environment!

Two people in a cage: one strong one weak: the strong is equipped with a sword and a shield, whereas the weak has a toothpick to his defence. Furthermore: let us get rid of the referee and hope the battle goes by the rulebook (that clearly states: no picking with a toothpick. Poor strong guy, he might be in trouble without the referee in there)! Perhaps the poor guy should be stripped from his toothpick – just in case… Fair enough?

Sorry to jump in so late, but I can’t help feeling a little uncomfortable reading the discussion.

Reasons: the positions might not be as clear as they look at the first look and sometimes positions try to make believe they are what they really aren’t and arguments might be used to hide what’s really intended.
(Sounds vague, but I can give a lot of examples…)

And somehow it might not be so clear what IS a “fully” capitalistic country. Very often it is defined negatively - like the government should not give money to unemployed people, the government should not spend money on healthcare, the government should not…the list is endless…but where does it end? What should the government spent on money at all? Who should build roads in a capitalistic country?
How about other fields of basic infrastructure? Electricity? California privatizing electricity supply was not what I would call a success story.

After I think it’s impossible to give a full theory of capitalism on a board like this I’d like to find out “the other way” - was/is there a fully capitalistic nation? If so which, if not, which comes closest to the ideal of a pure capitalistic system?

England of the 1890s? The USA of the 1950s? I don’t know - both have more characteristics of extreme forms of oligarchys (but maybe somebody can think of better examples…) protecting and promoting the interests of small powerful groups.
Often with tax payers money - the US government spent billions of dollars for interventions in South America in the 60s and 70s with no other purpose than to secure interests of US companies in that region - is that laissez-faire? I’d call it the opposite.

So after all the question seems to be: where should the publics money mainly go? To protect the intersts of the rich&powerful or to try to help the helpless&poor? I’m far from taking any side here.

But another example (regarding 10% unemployment in Germany)- it’s a big difference to be poor and/or unemployed in Western Europe or in the USA, but it’s a big difference to be rich, too.
Take a rich guy, make him put on his most expensive suit, put 10000$ in his pocket and make him walk through certain ghettos in miami or LA - I bet he will not survive it.
Do the same in any Western European capital - he will reach home safely.

So sometimes basic welfare (like in mixed capitalistic-socialistic Westen European countries) can even improve quality of living for the richer.

Certainly valid points; there is poverty and there is relative poverty. The average income in U.S.A. might be something around $37k/year, but, there is also way too much deep poverty for rich nation like that. Norway could be classified being a “welfare nation” (as with the whole of Scandinavia) and still manage around $35k/year while certainly having less relative poverty. I’m sure Norway has problems too, but they have managed to come around as a wealthy nation (with almost no national debt) despite their burdens.

We should not treat economics as something apart from society, they go together. Having said that, I guess welfare could be defined in the lines of: counteracting the negative effects of the market for people who, for a variety of reasons, find it a struggle to meet their basic needs (Giddens 2003). They could struggle because of spillover effects or externalities from the market economy, or whatever.

I think it’s more a question about tolerance: tolerance for realizing that the market cannot fix everything (and can actually create problems) as well as tolerance for people who find it hard to get by in a market economy. If the economy or ideology cannot handle that kind of tolerance, it’s not worth a damn. And yes, the market economy is generally a good thing, it gives us wealth; thats why we should look past our belly, because we can afford it.

No, it is happening when it is able to because of a horrible legal system. Laissez-faire would make it worse? Oh wow. I am not going to argue a worst of 2 evils as I still contend that laissez-faire is not even close to an evil, but I will say that any country facing oppression and poverty would be better by 10 fold if there was laissez-faire capitalism.

Democracy is for the people, they should decide what laws are created, followed or dropped; the constitution did not just start to exist, it was created, and should be changed if found necessary. Perhaps not perfect for every single man, but nothing is.
And that includes on infringing on the rights of others for you doesn’t it?

The deal is: the richest 20% owns 86% of the world’s economy (or GDP if you like); the poorest 20% owns 1%; the middleclass (= 60% of world population) owns 13%. That would be the starting point for a laissez-fair economy; it doesn’t take a genius to figure there could be some trouble ahead in the pure capitalistic paradise – there is already trouble in an almost capitalistic environment!
That is a completely moronic statement. You neglect that in many (dare I say most) countries the richest people are not there because of capitalism, but rather collectivist policies that they benefit from (especially dictatorships and monarchies), especially in the middle east and Africa. I wouldn’t say 60% of the world’s population is middle class either. Heck, I wouldn’t consider most of Europe’s population middle class by the economic standards of the US, maybe the world though.

Two people in a cage: one strong one weak: the strong is equipped with a sword and a shield, whereas the weak has a toothpick to his defence. Furthermore: let us get rid of the referee and hope the battle goes by the rulebook (that clearly states: no picking with a toothpick. Poor strong guy, he might be in trouble without the referee in there)! Perhaps the poor guy should be stripped from his toothpick – just in case… Fair enough?

You really continue to do the same thing. Anarcho-capitalism, by getting rid of the “referee” is just that. The ridiculous fact you cannot differentiate between the two is making this pointless.

Question is, would it have been messed up in the first place if it was never collectivised? To be “realistic” (a nice buzz word in this thread), it would take decades at least to fix the mess that collectivist policies have made. In a laissez-faire society from the beginning, toll roads would have been made to accomodate needs as they were presented. If someone used a road frequently, they would most likely make a deal with the owner for a fair and cheap price. Roads would not be set-up the current way they are, so it would be very hard to imagine the positive or negative social ramifications. Toll roads may set a nerve off, but it really is not that much different from paying taxes, except you choose which ones you spend your money on and roads are built as needed.

After I think it’s impossible to give a full theory of capitalism on a board like this I’d like to find out “the other way” - was/is there a fully capitalistic nation? If so which, if not, which comes closest to the ideal of a pure capitalistic system?

England of the 1890s? The USA of the 1950s? I don’t know - both have more characteristics of extreme forms of oligarchys (but maybe somebody can think of better examples…) protecting and promoting the interests of small powerful groups.
Often with tax payers money - the US government spent billions of dollars for interventions in South America in the 60s and 70s with no other purpose than to secure interests of US companies in that region - is that laissez-faire? I’d call it the opposite.

I agree with most of this, at first glance.

But another example (regarding 10% unemployment in Germany)- it’s a big difference to be poor and/or unemployed in Western Europe or in the USA, but it’s a big difference to be rich, too.
Take a rich guy, make him put on his most expensive suit, put 10000$ in his pocket and make him walk through certain ghettos in miami or LA - I bet he will not survive it.
Do the same in any Western European capital - he will reach home safely.

So sometimes basic welfare (like in mixed capitalistic-socialistic Westen European countries) can even improve quality of living for the richer.

Basic welfare has sure done a lot in America. The fact that someone can get robbed shows how ineffective the police of the nations are and the lack of security. Trying to justify any action by saying “they did it because they were poor” is weak. Many poor people live and prosper to better lives without stealing or committing crimes against others.

You also have no idea what you are talking about from a “streets” standpoint. Here in Lisbon virtually every guy I have met has been robbed at some point, some MANY times. People don’t just lose their money, some lose their cell phones, their SHOES, coats, etc. Hell, the only reason I haven’t been robbed is because I take a cab everywhere after night falls and even then, I have seen some suspicious people and had to make my way around certain areas for the fear of robbery. It is far from safer in Europe walking through the ghettos and making yourself a target, not that it justifies the act in anyway as the person would have violated the most basic rights of any man.

If you’re willing to give up your right to own substantial property, then by all means move over there. I’d be interested to hear how many entrepreneurs are successful over there and how many millionares the country has. It also helps that the government controls one of the largest oil producing industries in the world in Norway–probably close to the way Kuwait runs their country I am willing to imagine, by basically subsidizing the citizens. Oh yeah, enjoy being forced into military service regardless of peace situation and being conscripted to war as young as 16 if there is war.

Actually, I already did my military service (yes, conscription)! Do you hear me complaining?

Sweden, Denmark and Finland have no oil, but still manage a good economy (Scandinavian countries). Heck, Finland (nr1), Sweden (nr3) and Denmark (nr5) was among the 6 most competitive economies in the world (according to the World Economic Forum).

I you were to make wild guess: would you consider corporations having the significant amount of wealth in the world – the stockholders (and not some lonely African dictator or any Monarchy for that matter)? Or is this moronic as well?

You didn’t get my metaphor, did you? It doesn’t matter if there is a referee in the ring or not! The weak guy only has a toothpick for crying out loud! At least give him a shield! History is written by the strong, economy ruled by the mighty, and the rules are created by the influential … should we strip the poor guy from his only hope – democracy (and right to change the rules) – because it could infringement on personal integrity! How selfish can we be! Sorry, I forgot, it’s a virtue.

Just take a look at Argentina. The IMF fucked her in the ass so hard that it will take decades to stop the bleeding. And not even a baby as a result!

Since you are willing to give up your rights, then good to you. I cannot say that I would be reluctant to do the same unless it was for an actual cause that I felt would have benefit for myself or my family.

Sweden, Denmark and Finland have no oil, but still manage a good economy (Scandinavian countries). Heck, Finland (nr1), Sweden (nr3) and Denmark (nr5) was among the 6 most competitive economies in the world (according to the World Economic Forum).
Again, I don’t see the relevance to the topic, nor do I see how one could personally justify the loss of their own personal rights, as those in the Scandanavian countries do. If they are willing to do that, then the whole epistomology side of things is a waste.

I you were to make wild guess: would you consider corporations having the significant amount of wealth in the world – the stockholders (and not some lonely African dictator or any Monarchy for that matter)? Or is this moronic as well?
Yes, but most of the poor are under these dictators and the like. Also, to insinuate that for some reason the rich should not have most of the wealth is pretty, well, intriguing. Unless everybody is the same, they are going to have more money for their size. The dramatic amount can very well reflect the fact of those who work hard and strive for something better in life and those that are content with the way they are. In a laissez-faire system only (which most of the world is not even close to) it would not be much different obviously. In most socialist and communist systems, it may be closer, but with a much much lower average and/or top end. If restricting progress by restricting what people may do with their money and how much money they may obtain is alright with you, then so be it. It is not even worth debating that any more because it is clear one who is justifying these acts has no serious interest in their personal rights (property and liberty especially) nor progress.

You didn’t get my metaphor, did you? It doesn’t matter if there is a referee in the ring or not! The weak guy only has a toothpick for crying out loud! At least give him a shield! History is written by the strong, economy ruled by the mighty, and the rules are created by the influential … should we strip the poor guy from his only hope – democracy (and right to change the rules) – because it could infringement on personal integrity! How selfish can we be! Sorry, I forgot, it’s a virtue.

This is so ridiculously idiotic it is hard to grasp. Democracy is the weak guys only weapon, so that he may, in turn take away the rights of others. RIGHT! So genius I cannot believe.

Well, if you consider democracy idiotic, there is really nothing to discuss anymore, you kind of said what I suspected you would.

Perhaps you should take a closer look what democracy actually does (and how it should work), what decisions are made, and how they relate to personal freedom. That is, when you’re finished admiring your belly and you backyard. Most rules are created or changed in order to protect rather than to destroy.

“The dramatic amount can very well reflect the fact of those who work hard and strive for something better in life and those that are content with the way they are” – perhaps the poor kid in a ghetto in Bolivia, eating garbage, is not striving enough. Therefore he should continue paying for private rainwater?

Benjamin Franklin once said, “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is the lamb contesting the vote.”

That’s an old one I picked up off these forums. Somewhere, I forget… great qoute, though.

Maybe you could differentiate between mob justice and representational republic like we have in the US. If you are supporting essentially mob justice, then you are no better than many of the French during the French Revolution, who had along the same line of thinking. How many poor kids from Bolivia have you met again? Until you’ve seen it, I wouldn’t comment on the subject. I have seen people who’ve abused welfare, people who have risen from nothing economically, people who were rich by birth and lost it because of lack of work, I have lived in a ridiculously socialist country AND a country leaning more towards capitalism. I have a feeling you have no clue what you are talking about. Also, maybe if his government had not been fucking him over for years, he wouldn’t be in the situation he is.

OK, now I see what you really going at. Looks like you are really convinced about an extreme position which was prestented by Max Stirner in the 19th century in “Der Einzige und sein Eigentum” (I think it was translated to "The Ego and it’s own)

The position is absurd, but interesting and kind of entertaining. Since I can’t give detailled arguments on board take it only as a unbacked statement which you can deny with the same right of course (my fault, but I’ve got no time).

Just one short hint: Probably any constitution of Reality for any individual and society(natural, social) (through language, thinking, communication - actually all language, thinking, communication) might have (necessary pragmatistic) normative prerequisites with (ethic) relevance for any human action. In other words if humans would not accept certain (usually unconscios) rules (which might lead to sg. what you call collectivism) they could not even think, talk, interact with other humans in a “human” way at all. For example the wolves in the forrest which eat you do not follownor know about these rules.
(…sorry if I go too far, but I got my degree in Philosophy… :wink:

I don’t think the inefficiency of the police is the reason. If you need police force to prevent any possible crime you’d need at least as much policemen as free citizens or surveilance technology & system far above what was described in Orwells “1984”

Being poor is no excuse for comitting any crime.
On the opposite you’ll find a lot of nations with a higher percentage of poorer people but still far lower crime rates than the USA.

It was too black-and white I know. I do not know Lisbon buck I could back your argument with other cities I know (like Naples) which are quite dangerous, too.
But there is still a big difference in violent crime rate btween US cities and Western European cities. (Vienna, Munich, Kopenhagen, Stockholm, Oslo etc. - in Vienna we have about 30 murders p. year amongst 2 mill. inhabitants - compare that to any 2 mill. city in the US, I bet you won’t find one single one which does not have a murder rate at least 10 times higher…)

Who is advocating mob justice? If you read all the posts presented here (not just mine); no one is prescribing mob justice or socialism. I don’t know why you would think that. There is a BIG difference between socialism and social responsibility. Almost everyone here is advocating market economy with social responsibility – some more, some less, but hardly anyone will agree on the extreme left or right dichotomy.

Before you have been in a situation where poor little children, who have no safety-net to turn to, come and offer their body because that’s their only chance of getting food, you kind realize how heartbreaking the situation is. Before something like that happens to you, you’re in no position to tell me how many poor children I have met (believe me, a few is more than enough). If you like a lighter version, just take a trip to Juarez (walk over Rio Grande to Mexico) And the other extreme, during the 80s, in Soviet Russia, people spent the night under our hotel balconies waiting for us to throw something at them (perhaps Adidas socks or whatever?). A bunch of rubels were useless because there was nothing to buy. However, the issue is not what you have seen, but that you know exists. Things don’t fix themselves by closing your eyes (if that is what you mean by ‘shutting up’). Ignorance should not be ignored!

I will retire from this thread, and because you apparently think I have no clue how things really are, I leave it to some outstanding, soon to come, colleagues to explain why extremes are not preferable. After that, I can go back to my thing (athletics and political science) and you can go back to being a good capitalist. And again, yes, the market is a good thing after all. And no, I’m not condemning you for believing in the market system; I do it too, just differently.

Shalev & Korpi: Industrial conflict tends to lose its central role in the political economy of western nations to the extent that the labor movement achieves access to the political power and is thereby able to move the center of gravity of the manifestations of conflicts of the interest between capital and labor from the industrial to the political arena. — Any mob rule here or just normal democracy?

If you believe in the Phillips curve, you probably conclude in the lines of Hibbs: There is a widespread agreement among economists that in capitalist economies wage and price stability requires relatively high levels of unemployment, and, conversely, that low rates of unemployment yield relatively high rates of inflation. — Perhaps not entirely correct, there can also be high unemployment and high inflation, but sufficient in understanding why left- and right-wing governments prescribe different reforms.

Moreover, to make it fully clear: Macroeconomic policies pursued by left- and right-wing governments are broadly in accordance with the objective economic interest and subjective preferences of their class-defined core political constituencies. (Hibbs). — that means either lowering unemployment or inflation (leftists will try to lower unemployment whereas right-wing proponents will try to lower the inflation rate), usually depends on the current economic situation and who is in power and what the people see as more important.

When it comes to why both market economy and social responsibility is advocated, Christensen can perhaps explain: A functioning society with respect and tolerance between social groups, and with certain measure of justice in the distribution of social resources is, in the long run, the best guarantee for the creating and upkeep of internal order and a viable social contract.

Finally: [b]It is a fundamental conception that social and economic development, democracy and ‘good governance’ will ensure peace /b. — Kind of obvious, but should be mentioned. Good governance is never extreme.

With this, rather lengthy writing, I leave the last word to you. Call me an idiot if you like, but this is kind of how I see the situation. Before you dissect every sentence and come up with counterargument to every single one (and out of context), please see the whole post as one statement, and it will be clearer.

As I said, if you want to become that general, any form of communication could be called collectivist.

I don’t think the inefficiency of the police is the reason. If you need police force to prevent any possible crime you’d need at least as much policemen as free citizens or surveilance technology & system far above what was described in Orwells “1984”
Which is why using the argument about more crime is somewhat paradoxal, to me at least. You say there is more crime and things need to be done. Instead of making the streets safer, you take money from the people yourself and give it to the people who would have stolen it? :confused:

Being poor is no excuse for comitting any crime.
On the opposite you’ll find a lot of nations with a higher percentage of poorer people but still far lower crime rates than the USA.

Violent crime probably. A lot (if not most) of that has to do with gang related violence in the US, which is much less prevalent in most of Europe from what I have seen first hand.

But there is still a big difference in violent crime rate btween US cities and Western European cities. (Vienna, Munich, Kopenhagen, Stockholm, Oslo etc. - in Vienna we have about 30 murders p. year amongst 2 mill. inhabitants - compare that to any 2 mill. city in the US, I bet you won’t find one single one which does not have a murder rate at least 10 times higher…)

Again, a lot has to do with gang related violence. This would include, other than just gang “business” or whatever the hell they may call it, drug related traffiking, and the like. I personally would not want to live in Vienna myself. Does not Switzerland still have some cities that do not allow women to vote? The Swiss are nice, from the ones I’ve met, but some very odd customs I cannot agree with personally.

To let you know, you are the one who has taken many things out of context and refused to address many of my key points and go off on other tangents instead. Either way, the type of democracy you are advocating is in fact mob justice. You insinuated pretty clearly (and did not refute when I brought it up) that a democracy should allow people to take away the rights of others in the name of society and for its benefit as a whole. This is the exact type of propaganda and nonsense that fueled every major war and genocide in history, from Hitler to Mao to Saddam. You mention Soviet Russians, very sad case. I may have given them something myself if I had been in that situation. That leads one to wonder what type of government they were under. With some quick thinking you can come up with it. Very sad story though. I myself lived in southern Florida that had many immigrants from Haiti and central America who were “tomato pickers” in the fields and that was all they did, until they generally moved up the ladder to slightly different jobs and especially if/when they learned English. Your comments on how the different systems work is incomplete and half-true at best. Left wing governments work to lower unemployment? Look at some of the sizeable leftist countries and tell me how that is working.

Actually, I believe the quote is, “Liberty is a well armed lamb constesting the vote.” He pretty much would have to be.

Final Grade on my persuasive speach was an A-… Thanks for the help guys :smiley: (Davan especially, if you hadn’t presented such a solid piece of intellect for everyone to rail on there’d be no way in hell this thread would have lasted as long as it did)

Anytime–it’s been a good one.

Aynd Rand was just as single-minded as a socialist (so seems Andrew Berennstein- Capitalist Manifesto). The best, most applicable and truly compassionate cases for capitalism is given by Milton Friedman and FA Hayek. I just don’t have time for pilosophers. Obviously Davan you recognize the inherent beauty and moral justice of “capitalism” (a competitive and free market) and the inherent evil that results from collectivist thought, but I just don’t agree w/ Ayn Rand being a leading symbol for economic liberalism cause. I certainly didn’t need her fiction to recognize this Especially considering the great minds before her: Lord Acton, Locke, De Toquerville, Adam Smith…Also you attack “academia” in America as those who can’t succeed in business. This isn’t the case. I have many professors who are socialist leaning. I don’t blame them, they are simply delusional in thinking that in a planned society their particular societal goals will come to fruition. They think of their goals as being of the highest order, and any rational person would come to that conclusion in a discussion. We know that the wants and needs of society are far too diverse to be met by any central planner. We aren’t going to make people recognize the truth by telling them they’re cattle. I highly recommend you read The Road to Serfdom if you haven’t; it’s a very dense and slow read, but in my opinion is undisputable truth.