Well said,
30 years ago having a vascectomy was also thought to have caused hardening of the arteries (have not the time to spellcheck). I think the arterie they are thinking with is about a foot from the heart
I have been looking in to this also. I couldn’t find anything (via pubmed or google scholar) that suggested exercise induced ventricular hypertrophy in children may have adverse consequences.
James, do you have any sources?
This is a great thread. As a parent coach i had to pull my 2 younger daughters out of track all together (ages 9 and 12) I let my older one train (13yo) 1-2 /week and the longest distance we ran was an easy 400m jog and I mean I could walk next to her… All we did was shot put throws/medball throw and hurdle drils and starts… Lo and be hold she PRs almost 16ft almost 5 ft in the HJ. Her hurdles are a work in progress but for the 100m hurdles she did 17 low fat… And we did a SE work out she was able to do 13.5 to 14 for 4x100m with a walk back rest…
To my surprise the 2 younger ones had HUGE PRs with no training at all maybe a few times a month of med ball and very short sprints playing bball…
My point echo’s what everyone else is saying you CAN get results training with low volume low density training. STAY AWAY from coaches who do long sprints in practice and want them to do XC comps and are all crazy about JO’s focus on the long term… I took my kid to a camp where Roger Kindom and Andre Phillips were the coaches and after a long talk with them and they asked me what I did with my kid, they said I wish more parents did that…(low volume and form work…) They were not impressed with speed they were impressed that she had the basics down and she understands what to do when they asked her to change her technique… They said it made their job much easier… Focus on the basics and short stuff and the rest will come when they are older…
i think its pretty well known in the literature, the ventricular hypertrophy limits their capacity later in life
to give one example (although not from a scientific journal)
“Premature work loads requiring considerable anaerobic energy, applied to athletes who are not adequately prepared for this type of work, cause an excessive load on the cardiac function and a thickening of the artery walls, which delay the development of peripheral circulation and hinder cardiac activity itself. These factors may, in turn, cause a myocardial dystrophy. There is also a reduction of the oxidative capacity of the skeletal muscles, because mitochondrion integrity is disturbed and, therefore, speed at the anaerobic threshold level decreases.”
Yuri V. Verkoshansky
I’m no expert of course, and from what I have read, this is getting confusing, as I think we are talking about different things.
I believe what your posting is what was being referred to earlier in the posts, which has my interest.
But, I believe " Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy" is an entirely different disease, and is a genetic condition?
And then yet third example, that is “beneficial” thickening of the heart walls, and reversible in the future with less workout…?
Rick
Any clarification of the above?
Rick
Not sure about hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. So in regards to the thickening of the heart walls and exercise, it is permanent and not reversible even if exercise stops.
“So in regards to the thickening of the heart walls and exercise, it is permanent and not reversible even if exercise stops”
Not from what I have read:
“Athletic Heart Syndrome”:
http://www.ahealthyme.com/sites/cdma/cat_illsandcond.gif
" If you really want a “normal” heart again, all you have to do is stop exercising. Soon, your heart, along with the rest of your body, will sag back into its former shape."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletic_heart_syndrome
“80% of people affected by this syndrome show a decrease in such structural changes and in bradycardia with detraining”
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec01/ch006/ch006b.html
“When an athlete stops training, the athletic heart syndrome slowly disappears—that is, heart size and heart rate tend to return gradually to those of the nonathlete”
After re-reading the article by Yuri V. Verkoshansky, it seems he is talking more about thickening of arteries and constriction and a weakening of the heart…I don’t see anything about thickening of the heart walls and ventricals…and I did LOTS of searchs and this is the only reference of this type of condition.
In all my searches, I could not find any other reference to this condition, so I’m not sure about it’s validity…anyone have other medical references, and that more clearly define it as a medical condition?
“In cyclic sports disciplines, combat sports and games, a premature intensification
of high velocity work causes asthenic reactions — unproductive reactions that are
meant to protect the organism from abrupt changes of the acid-base balance.
Premature work loads requiring considerable anaerobic energy, applied to athletes
who are not adequately prepared for this type of work, cause an excessive load on
the cardiac function and a thickening of the artery walls, which delay the
development of peripheral circulation and hinder cardiac activity itself. These
factors may, in turn, cause a myocardial dystrophy.”
So, it does appear that there are at least, 2 seperate conditions:
1.) Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy: Which is bad, and can cause sudden death syndrome, believed to be genetic.
2.) Athletic Heart Syndrome: Not bad, is good for athletics, and will reduce to normal when athletics subside.
I believe this to be a very important subject, and hopefully, those “in the know” can chime in?
Rick
Just an update to my post above…
My daughter had her bi-annual sports physical today. I mentioned to the doctor that She was active in track, both School and USATF/AAU. I was happily impressed with her wanting to do a ECG to check for …Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy!
I guess it’s a normal thing they check for when kids get into sports for 9th Grade, and even though my daughter is only going into 8th Grade, she considered my daughter needing it early because of her involvement early into sports…
I asked for a copy and was told everything was great. Don’t know what the graph means, but i did get a copy.
This is good stuff to know…I’m learning a lot from this site!
Rick
Found an interesting article that supports Speedster12’s posted article by Yuri V. Verkoshansky.
http://www.pediatrics.org/cgi/content/full/123/4/1217
Interesting, read quote here:
“increased risk created by race (black), gender
(male) and biological development, and/or length of
training… extreme rarity…(1 in 400,000)”
Well, again, I’m even more releived after reading this article, as it is pretty much non-existant in females.
Rick
Anyone have comments?
Perhaps the aerobic training effect on the heart may not be permanent, but the anaerobic effects may be…?
That would be important information to know if true.
I have searched and searched for a difference between aerobic and anaerobic in these articles, but I have not found one that does not group both together when making the statement of the heart returning to normal.
Rick
Cardiomyopathy means disease of the Heart.
Left Ventricular Hypertrophy (LVH) is the term used to decribe thickening of the LV Myocardium (Heart Muscle). This can be genetic or an adaptation to load (e.g. training, high blood pressure, narrow aortic valve)
Hypertrophic Cardiopyopathy (HCM) is a disease process involving thickening of the Left Ventricular Myocardium. This can be a uniform thickening, or thickening of specific areas.
Hypertrophic Obstructive Cardiomyopathy is a dangerous “asymetrical” thickening of the Intraventricular Septum, within the heart. The heart muscle is thickened at the area close to where the blood leaves the left ventricle, before is passes through the aortic valve. This can result in reduced cardiac output during exercise, which can result in abnormal heart rhythms (arrhythmia) and in some cases can lead to death.
Thickening cause by external factors eg training are known as physiological changes and are thought to atrophy, as skeletal muscle would, if the individual became inactive.
Thickening caused by disease processes, or genetics, are known as pathological and is unlikely to atrophy.
What is thought to influence atrophy is the amount that the tissue has fibrosed e.g. hypertrophy caused by long-term hypertension is less likely to atrophy due to long term exposure to increased work load causing fibrosis.
Any hypertrophy of the myocardium results in a reduction in the diastolic function of the heart (the ability of the heart muscle to relax and fill with blood.)
An ECG is a usefull tool in the screening of athletes for heart problems, it can indicate LVH, but only imaging such as MRI or ultrasound can confirm/rule out structural defects.
An ECG can also confirm/ rule out some conduction defects of the heart, but again is not foolproof.
http://www.singapore2010.sg/public/sg2010/en/en_games/en_games_results.html
The girl I told you about Robin Renoylds won the 400 at the youth olympics games in a sb time of 52.57
Personal Bests
100 Meter Dash - 11.56
200 Meter Dash - 23.60
400 Meter Dash - 52.57
5000 Meter Run - 22:28.66
800 Meter Run - 2:15.78
Long Jump - 19-9.5
Pretty good all-around she is!
Rich, I think from everything you have said, you handle your daughters training very intelligently. I found Hannah to be something special. Will she plateau? Maybe, maybe not. You know these girls on a daily basis far better than any of us, so I respect your thoughts. Trust me, you didn’t waste you money on Charlie’s material. Some people of here sometimes lack tact. You have some wonderful resources like James Smith, Number 2, etc. There are so many great minds on here. I remember a conversation I had with a kid in Jamaica 7 years ago. I believe the kid said “Dave, if you think Asafa is fast, wait til this kid Bolt shows up!” He said he was going to be faster and what happened. Yes, there are alot of things that can happen between now and then, but lets applaud a young lady who has shown some amazing talent and to parents who support her without jamming it down her throat. Good luck to you, your daughter, and Hannah. By the way, the thread on Cardiac issues was brilliant.
Thank you for your very kind words, and wisdom.
I may have been viewed as somewhat “defensive” and should have not commented early on some things that I did.
I feel comfortable here now, and see there is a great group of people here and I hope I didn’t ruffle anyones feathers too much…
I feel comfortable enough to even try to explain why my comments may sometimes sound a little irrational.
I am constantly up or down on chronic pain medication, which at times makes the thought process very difficult, foggy or worse, emotional…so I hope no one took anything I wrote personal.
I am slowly reading through the Charlies “Training System” as it is very difficult for me to read/concentrate/comprehend much at a time, due to what I mentioned earlier, very frustrating because I love to read.
I am learning alot, and I feel very lucky to have met you guys and hope one day I can contribute here also.
Again, thank you!
Rick
I am sorry to hear about the pain medication. My Mom deals with it daily and I have seen how it affects people. As for reading CFTS slowly, I doubt there is a member on here who hasn’t reread it 10 times. I refer to it often. Trust me, Charlie was so brilliant that anytime I ever spent time with him, I told Angela I felt dumber for having visited. You would think that you would begin to close the knowledge gap, but Charlie was still growing at his passing. I have met many intelligent people, but he was easily top 5. That includes the many Orthos and medical specialists I have met over the years. The only thing you can really do for your daughter is to love and support her in her dreams. You obviously care about her development as you purchased much material from Charlie. The greatest gift is helping her see her dreams to their end, wherever she determines that to be. Maybe Olympics, maybe college, maybe just high school. It doesn’t matter, so long as she gets joy from it. Gentlemen like Number 2 and James Smith will eloquently point out some pit falls to look out for. I am sure some of the others who commented could have done so in a more constructive manner. No quicker way to make a man defensive than to question his care of his daughter. I know I would have been a little put off by the yawn comment as well. This is not the spirit of the forum, and I was a little upset when you questioned your decision to buy material. I just want to reaffirm that this is easily the single best site for athletic prep knowledge with many brilliant minds and great members, even if we don’t always agree. It’s supposed to be an open minded discussion of ideas. Keep posting yout thoughts and the girls results. I look forward to seeing your daughters and Hannahs growth.